Decry the prisoner abuse all that you want....

[swissmiss04]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
And Wahabism is sooooooo 1750. Can you say "regional clusterfuck?" I knew you could.

Russ I think I like you

[Rudey]

Originally posted by RACooper
Ja Rudey

Jawohl! wir zerquetschen den widerstand! Für das Vaterland!

because afterall we have heard statements like yours before.... and the excuse that "I was following orders"....

Actually no there is no comparison. But Nazi comparisons made by ignorant, and straight stupid, people have been used in the past Mr.Im45andStillInCollege.

-Rudey

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by Rudey
Some people are so intent on forgetting American suffering at the expense of the "human rights" of these prisoners.

In my opinion we should be burning whole villages down right now and not playing PR games with the world.

-Rudey

That action will classified as a war crime. According to Article II, Sec 1.b of the Control Council Law No. 10, Punishment of Persons Guilty of War Crimes, Crimes Against Peace and Against Humanity, December 20, 1945, 3 Official Gazette Control Council for Germany 50-55 (1946):

War Crimes. Atrocities or offences against persons or property, constituting violations of the laws or customs of war, including but not limited to, murder, ill treatment or deportation to slave labour or for any other purpose of civilian population from occupied territory, murder or ill treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by moe.ron
That action will classified as a war crime. According to Article II, Sec 1.b of the Control Council Law No. 10, Punishment of Persons Guilty of War Crimes, Crimes Against Peace and Against Humanity, December 20, 1945, 3 Official Gazette Control Council for Germany 50-55 (1946):

Do you think the human rights commission of the UN would be upset? Perhaps Sudan will prosecute us hard.

Maybe the Security Council will be upset. I hear the Russians and Chinese might flip their lids.

War crimes, shmar crimes because countries that commit war crimes themselves have no right to judge us. The US only has to answer to itself at the very end of the day.

-Rudey

[dekeguy]

Seems pretty simple to me. Who are THEY? They are "the bad guys" as opposed to us who are supposed to be "the good guys".
As long as there are wars there will be bad guys and hopefully good guys as well.
We need to make certain that we live up to the obligation to be the good guys. This does not allow us the questionable luxury of bending or breaking our standards of conduct just because the bad guys ignore the rules of civilized conduct. If there is no difference then what's the point of all of this anyway.
Now, I can tell you from first hand experience that your Army has by and large conducted itself in a manner of which you all can be very proud. I am appalled by the conduct of a few guards with respect to the Iraqi prisoners. I full well expect that the UCMJ will be applied harshly to set the tone of what MUST be the norm of our conduct. I full well expect that those who instigated, condoned, or ignored dishonorable acts will be delt with severely. I also expect that we will continue to root out terrorists and bring them to justice.
I see no comparison between the scum who murdered an American and these cretinous guards. (Please note use of word "MURDERED". Please remember that only a legitimate government can execute anyone. Homicide admits murder or manslaughter. Execution is a legal procedure reserved for governments. Gangs of thugs and terrorists can only do murder or manslaughter) (As an OBTW, I am pretty much opposed to capital punishment in general but I have little or no problem with what happens when soldiers conduct legitimate combat operations). I am horrified by the actions of the terrorists and I am disgusted by the actions of our few rotten apples. This is of great concern to me because it is axiomatic that a large group of armed people must operate under absolute rules of honorable and disciplined conduct or we face the alternative of a mob with weapons and training in how to use them. Besides all that we come back to the basic point here: We are the good guys. We cannot tolerate those who would corrupt that simple reality, WE ARE THE GOOD GUYS.
Rambling on a bit, but I needed to say a couple of things. Now I need to say a prayer for a guy who got caught by the bad guys and was murdered by them. Orate fratres...

[Rudey]

There is a lot of haze about the Americans holding him - a haze which might cast blame on the US Administration.

His family deserves every right to know and the US should give this investigation much higher priority than that of any guards.

-Rudey

[DeltAlum]

DekeGuy.

Well Done.

[sugar and spice]

I think part of the point that enlightenment was trying to make is that an us vs. them, good guys vs. bad guys is overly simplistic in regards to the entire situation in Iraq (not so much in regards to the Nick Berg situation, which even my bleeding heart can't justify in ANY way). The guys that killed Nick Berg think that they're the "good guys" and we're the "bad guys." Now I think that while whether or not we're "the good guys" is up for debate . . . it's pretty clear that anybody who takes a knife to an innocent man's neck is not part of the "good guys." But that doesn't stop them from thinking so.


I agree with swissmiss in regards to a LOT of the stuff that's been going on lately, but particularly in regards to this -- I don't understand how anybody could be that cruel to another human being regardless of their political views. It's just sick.

[dekeguy]

sugar and spice
Actually, the question here is rather simplistic. My point is that while there will always be bad guys we must make certain that we are the good guys. Some of our people have let us down badly and we need to correct that. There are generally accepted norms of civilized behavior which are equally valid among Iraqis, Yanks, and everyone, for that matter. The terrorists have routinely and consistently acted in a barbaric manner and brought shame and dishonor to those they claim to represent. Our own idiots have also brought shame and dishonor on us. It is a very inexact comparison since the terrorists do loathsome acts as a matter of business as usual while our idiots are an aberration from the norm. We need to clense this stain while recognizing that the vast majority of our troops really live up to the ideal of being the good guys. We need to continue the fight against global terrorism AND we need to come to the fight with completely clean hands. It really is that simple

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
Actually no there is no comparison. But Nazi comparisons made by ignorant, and straight stupid, people have been used in the past Mr.Im45andStillInCollege.

-Rudey

Apparently you missed the point of my post. My post was meant to draw attention to the fact that you have been advocating actions or methods that contravine the "Laws of War", in much the same light that the German army (not the SS, for them there was no debate) debated the bounds of what they could and should do to counter-act what they classified as acts of terrorism against them. It is important to remember the lessons of history, lest they be repeated... or worse ignored.

See the posts by Dekeguy, because he is coming from the same view as me... that it is important for the forces fighty tyranny and terrorism to maintain the moral high gorund as well as the ideals that we espouse.

Remember the maxim: "Be careful that you do not let your hate consume you and turn you into what you despise".

[enlightenment06]

Originally posted by dekeguy
sugar and spice
Actually, the question here is rather simplistic. My point is that while there will always be bad guys we must make certain that we are the good guys. Some of our people have let us down badly and we need to correct that. There are generally accepted norms of civilized behavior which are equally valid among Iraqis, Yanks, and everyone, for that matter. The terrorists have routinely and consistently acted in a barbaric manner and brought shame and dishonor to those they claim to represent. Our own idiots have also brought shame and dishonor on us. It is a very inexact comparison since the terrorists do loathsome acts as a matter of business as usual while our idiots are an aberration from the norm. We need to clense this stain while recognizing that the vast majority of our troops really live up to the ideal of being the good guys. We need to continue the fight against global terrorism AND we need to come to the fight with completely clean hands. It really is that simple

actually...troops follow orders and protocol, and technically any soldier that does so is being a "good" soldier.

my point is that we must be sure who we're talking about, and not speak in of people in such vague, broad terms

example...you say "we" are the good guys, and if "we" are the troops, then yes...but if "we" are those who make the policy that guides the troops, then that's a different matter. If you're typical Iraqi citizen (not that I personally know), do you think you would still view the world in such a manner? If one of your family members was killed by an American bomb, or were detained and totured, would you still view the United States as "the good guys?"

I support the troops, and I want them all to come home safe. I love my country, and I love the high ideals which we are supposed to represent. But idealism loses value with no action. How free are the Iraqi people now? Their oil money is being taken, they have no law, and their country is under occupation. Granted, Saddam Hussein was an evil dictator, but how free are the Iraqi people now?

I believe it is my duty to love my country enough to criticize when something isn't right- and this ain't right.

[James]

" . . . and where the Devil does not exist it may be necessary to create him"

Originally posted by dekeguy
sugar and spice
Actually, the question here is rather simplistic. My point is that while there will always be bad guys we must make certain that we are the good guys. Some of our people have let us down badly and we need to correct that. There are generally accepted norms of civilized behavior which are equally valid among Iraqis, Yanks, and everyone, for that matter. The terrorists have routinely and consistently acted in a barbaric manner and brought shame and dishonor to those they claim to represent. Our own idiots have also brought shame and dishonor on us. It is a very inexact comparison since the terrorists do loathsome acts as a matter of business as usual while our idiots are an aberration from the norm. We need to clense this stain while recognizing that the vast majority of our troops really live up to the ideal of being the good guys. We need to continue the fight against global terrorism AND we need to come to the fight with completely clean hands. It really is that simple

[dekeguy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by enlightenment06
[B] If you're typical Iraqi citizen (not that I personally know), do you think you would still view the world in such a manner? If one of your family members was killed by an American bomb, or were detained and totured, would you still view the United States as "the good guys?"
========
Funny you should ask that. At the begining of World War Two the French had capitulated to the Germans. There was a real danger that the French Fleet based in Oran would be handed over to the Germans. The British demanded the surrender of the French who refused. The Royal Navy then attacked and sank the French Battle Fleet to prevent it from being taken over by the Germans. It was a sad day all around. Now to the point. My family have always considered the Brits to be on the side of right during WW II, or in other words the good guys. Our support for the Brits did not change because my French cousin died on the bridge of his ship that day.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Rudey
Actually I've called you on this repeatedly and you never can say why. So create a thread. Let's have fun. You always do claim I'm so very good at baiting people, so let me bait you again pops.

-Rudey

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...hlight=Vietnam

Read my second comment down the page.

By the way, don't bother "calling" me out on anything. I will respond to what I want, when and where I want to. In this case, however, it was done some weeks ago.

What I won't resort to is name calling, bandwagoning, glittering generalities, transference or and of the other propaganda techniques I studied as part of my Interpersonal Communications minor. I will give you my opinion and the reasons for it.

If you disagree, I will listen and consider your argument as long as it is presented at least semi-respectfully. If not, I may choose to ignore you.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...hlight=Vietnam

I responded in that other thread.

-Rudey
--You must have been really fighting really hard on what to post to me if you took that long to write that; I admire your discipline pops.