Do you....

[AZpinkkittie]

Exactly. If they want to be your SISTER, I don't think they would want to rape you. I'm very doubtful that a lesbian would go through rush and join a house so she could be surrounded by prospects. Who in their right mind would put themselves in a situation that pretty much spells out rejection?

[Munchkin03]

It is my hope that many of the archaic, antiquated views expressed by some members of this board will not be tolerated in most regions of the country in the near future. Like someone said, blatant discrimination based on race or sexual orientation would be UNACCEPTABLE in my group, and certainly in my university--and it's something else that makes me so proud to be an alumna of my university! I can't imagine how sexual orientation would come up in Recruitment, but I was thinking more along the lines of campus rumors that came up during Membership Selection--which cannot be taken that seriously, anyway.

Perhaps more organizations will follow Tri-Delta's lead.

[IvySpice]

A question for those who say, "It's not discrimination -- it's based on the individual -- I wouldn't feel comfortable around a member of Group X, so I wouldn't pledge her."

What IS discrimination, in your book?

Can you help me understand the difference between discrimination and what you're doing? Because it looks exactly the same to me.

Ivy

[texas*princess]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
It is my hope that many of the archaic, antiquated views expressed by some members of this board will not be tolerated in most regions of the country in the near future. Like someone said, blatant discrimination based on race or sexual orientation would be UNACCEPTABLE in my group, and certainly in my university--and it's something else that makes me so proud to be an alumna of my university! I can't imagine how sexual orientation would come up in Recruitment, but I was thinking more along the lines of campus rumors that came up during Membership Selection--which cannot be taken that seriously, anyway.

Perhaps more organizations will follow Tri-Delta's lead.

This kind of blatant discriminiation is not acceptable in ANY sorority or even university. I'm sure Tri-Delta isn't the only organization that has anti-discriminatory regulations.

In addition, how would we really know what is going on in every chapter?

[GeekyPenguin]

An interest tidbit - at one of our very large, prestigious chapters, there are several openly gay sisters. Two of them are dating, they both live in the chapter house, and it hasn't caused any problems. They're so open about it that they discussed it with our CLC. If that makes more PNMs cut us during recruitment, fine. I'm not ashamed that they are gay sisters in my sorority, and I wish there were more. I wish there were more black, brown, yellow, and purple ones too, although I have a feeling some of those colors won't be happening for a while.

Yes, your reputation is only as strong as your weakest member - but your weakest member should be the girl who embarasses you by her behavior at the bars or the fraternity parties, the girl who swears in letters, not the girl who brings a date to formal that uses the same bathroom as her.

I am EMBARASSED that there are sorority chapters who will cut on this. How dare you! What do you do, lie to the PNMs about how much you love diversity and then introduce them on Bid Day to their pledge classes of blondes and brunettes with a "token" redhead?

Yes, this probably might cause a problem for the first chapters who do it, but you know what, so did accepting black women, accepting Catholics, etc - we're all still going strong, but with some of those attitudes, we won't be for much longer.

ETA: AXO_MOM_3 said that a girl should "feel the most comfortable around her sisters." I have a lot of sisters nationwide (I'm guessing it won't be a problem with the Canadian ones) who I don't know that I would feel comfortable around - some of them are from deep down in the Bible Belt and of a different political, economical, and religous backround than myself. I don't think we'd get along about anything outside of Gamma Phi Beta...and while I don't necessarily think that's wrong, and I'm still glad they're my sister, there are certainly other people, Greek and non-Greek, that I'd feel more comfortable around.

[Nhfulmer]

I'm not saying it isn't discrimination. What I'm saying is that we have the right to choose our members based on whatever criteria we decide to use. We discrimate based on many things. Sexual orientation and race are but two of them. If we didn't discriminate, why not just open membership to anyone who asks to be a member. Why vote? You were voted on and apparently your chapter liked what it saw. Why did your chapter ever cut anyone? What reasons were used? Whatever it was, it was discrimination of some type.

[texas*princess]

wonderfully said GeekyPenguin!!

[IvySpice]

I'm not saying it isn't discrimination. What I'm saying is that we have the right to choose our members based on whatever criteria we decide to use. We discrimate based on many things. Sexual orientation and race are but two of them. If we didn't discriminate, why not just open membership to anyone who asks to be a member. Why vote? You were voted on and apparently your chapter liked what it saw. Why did your chapter ever cut anyone? What reasons were used? Whatever it was, it was discrimination of some type.

Not race, not religion, not national origin, and not sexual orientation. Every national group that I'm aware of has a rule that the group shall not discriminate on the basis of race or religion. So what's the point of that rule? Is it just so many words on paper?

Ivy

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by Nhfulmer
I'm not saying it isn't discrimination. What I'm saying is that we have the right to choose our members based on whatever criteria we decide to use. We discrimate based on many things. Sexual orientation and race are but two of them. If we didn't discriminate, why not just open membership to anyone who asks to be a member. Why vote? You were voted on and apparently your chapter liked what it saw. Why did your chapter ever cut anyone? What reasons were used? Whatever it was, it was discrimination of some type.

I think we all know we can't discuss exactly why people were cut - but it never had to do with sexual orientation or race. That's just not allowed! I can cut a black girl if her grades are too low, but it would have to be for grades, not for her being black. I can cut a lesbian girl if I'm worried she couldn't uphold our membership standars, but not because she's lesbian. I'm wondering how many chapters look for an "excuse" to cut these girls for some other reason...

[AXOKatie]

i have a problem with rush language in general, such as cutting, preffing and other negative words...i know that my chapter chooses not to offer bids to girls because they had something negative about their personality such as they were mean or unfriendly or disinterested, not their looks or personal creed...i think it's horrible that sisters arbitrarily use the word DISCRIMINATION when referring to rush practices, a word that has such a history of hate and intolerance...i think that rush is about choosing girls that will make your organization the best that it can be, not cutting other people down who don't share their views...we all hope that PNMs will find houses that they are most happy with and we want to make our own PNMs Greek experience the best that it can be, individualistic and happy, not try to fit them into a cookie-cutter image of our sorority...

i hope that most sorority sisters hang out with members of other chapters and non-Greeks...if you only hang out with your sisters, those girls that you did not discriminate against, wouldn't you be just as close-minded as non-Greeks who stereotype against us? i don't know about everyone else, but i've had more of a problem with non-Greeks stereotyping against Greeks rather than the other way around...

getting off the soapbox...

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by texas*princess
I'm sure Tri-Delta isn't the only organization that has anti-discriminatory regulations.

In addition, how would we really know what is going on in every chapter?

Delta Delta Delta was the first NPC sorority to add it to their bylaws; even that change was fairly recent and after a few NIC fraternities did the same. If another NPC sorority has, please let me know.

We DEFINITELY don't know what's going on in every chapter--why ask such a question?

[Little E]

I'm not advocating this but...
Doesn't the whole issue with the Boy Scout's apply to us? (before taking into consideration our nat'l/local bylaws or any college regulations!!!) meaning legally we are allowed to discriminate. ie choose our members
I definatly don't agree with the chapters who cut based on discriminatory reasons, however, we are a selective membership system and we do need to do more for the discrimination arguement than scream and shout how horrible it is that discrimination happens.

I dunno, I accept that part of what we stand for discriminates (it could be the dress you wear or your finger nails etc.) but that is the part of the system that i have the hardest time with , one of my struggles when people find out i'm greek.

I'm just curious how many of the chapters have local bylaws that include sexual orientation in the discrimination clause since we are so up-in-arms about the issue.

just my 2c.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by texas*princess
This kind of blatant discriminiation is not acceptable in ANY sorority or even university. I'm sure Tri-Delta isn't the only organization that has anti-discriminatory regulations.

Munchkin03 is right -- Tri Delta is one of maybe 2 or 3 NPC organizations which forbids denying membership based on sexual orientation. We were the first to do it -- I believe it was added to our bylaws in 2002? Another sorority added it to their national policies sometime after we did, but I can't remember which sorority that was . . . anybody know?

The following IFC fraternities have the same policy:

Lambda Chi Alpha
Pi Kappa Phi
Kappa Delta Rho
Theta Chi
Delta Upsilon
Sigma Phi Epsilon

Out of 60-some IFC groups and 26 NPC groups, that is damn sad.

Of course, just because the national HQ lists that as a rule doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. But at least it's a start.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by AXOKatie


i totally agree with AZpinkkittie on this one...why would you want to have a bunch of sorority sisters that look/talk/act exactly like you? i think that having gay or bisexual sisters would add to the bonds of sisterhood just like having sisters of different races, faiths and economic backgrounds because you have something to SAY to each other...i would think that conflict would only come up if sisters stopped listening and respecting each other...and it seems like the only things that people are afraid of are A) their campus reputation and B) sisters hitting on them, two issues that i think can be worked out if their sisterhood is truly strong...every organization has to deal with rumors and stereotypes, half of the time it's not even true...and i think that sisters can and should respect each other's sexuality just as they would their heritage, hearts and minds, meaning that the chances of a sister hitting on you or sexually harassing are less than people think...this discussion has made me thankful that my campus is liberal and we never discuss gay or bi lifestyles during rush as if it were the only thing a girl had to offer, as if she wasn't a good student, athlete, dancer, friend or potential sister

Amen.

And ditto to GP's post which is up there too.

I think that Greeks -- fairly or not -- tend to be stereotyped as wallowing in our own tradition. And for the most part, tradition is great. I love hearing our recording secretary reading chapter meeting notes from the 1950s or the 1920s and realizing how similar some of our informal sorority rituals and practices still are. I think it's amazing that hundreds of thousands of women have gone through the Tri Delta ritual, dating back for decades and decades. I love the fact that fraternity boys still serenade us with the same songs they used in the 1950s.

But I think part of that love of tradition is that we just don't know when to QUIT. We keep hanging onto traditions long after they've outgrown their usefulness just because it's "the way things are done." That's why we have so many problems with hazing -- because it's tradition. That's why we have so many problems with alcohol -- because it's tradition. And that's why we have so many problems with attracting diversity, real diversity, not just the skinny blonde sorority with the token fat redhead who's held up as an example of "We have all types of girls here in Alpha Beta Gamma!" -- because traditionally, we haven't allowed it.

We need to start realizing that we can't keep living 50 years in the past.

[justamom]

I just can't resist a hot topic!

First, if I tick you off on this thread, I hope we can still be friends on another...

I,of course, have a more conservative view-good observation BTW
Little E.

The one word I am really sick to death of hearing is "discrimination". Not to pick on you Lunawolf, but I've read your thread most recently. Why is it NOT OK to be wary of a "Christian Witch" but OK to be wary of a Lesbian? I have seen examples of this on GC time after time. When it suits us, anyone with a different opinion gets hit with the LABEL of DISCRIMINATION. Yet when we agree, then we pat ourselves on the back about how open minded we are and how "with it" our thinking is. HOG WASH! People have the RIGHT to their FEELINGS! People have the right to share their time with whoever they want. We are NOT talking about Government jobs here, we are talking about social time...PERSONAL time...OUR INDIVIDUAL CHOICE of friends. I don't care if you are in Canada or Mississippi. When a group chooses WHO they want to affiliate with, it boils down to THEIR preferences. All the NPC mission statements in the WORLD will not change the individual groups. Heck, they can't even get the chapters to stop dirty rush or scavenger hunts-child's play compared to some of the recent issues.

This is not to say I hold any animosity/fear/rejection of any person
due to THINGS BEYOND THEIR CONTROL! Quite the opposite. Maybe one day we will find GLOs universally accepting of witches, wizards, gays, CLOWNS, (I hope you know the thread I'm referring to) and STOP worrying about girls who like to read the BIBLE! GOOD GAWD ALMIGHTY! Personally, I don't care if you pee backward walk around talking Pig Latin or wear white shoes before Memorial day. I DO care that ANYONE thinks they can force another person to be FRIENDS/SISTERS/BROTHERS with someone they CHOOSE NOT to.