Hazing is good

[mccoyred]

Well, this is a PUBLIC forum. If members admitted that their org hazed then they would be 'puttin their bizness out there' and could face repercussions (sp?) since many national officers are regulars on this board. It is called 'discretion'.

If they are indeed doing something illegal and/or against their orgs national policy, it WILL come to light. If they identify themselves and their chapter as hazers, it's like someone walking into the police station and admitting having committed a crime; they KNOW they will be arrested.

Think!

Originally posted by AlphaXiGirl:
I always find it so interesting that the people that want to brag about how strong their brotherhood/sisterhood is because of hazing and how their membership means so much more to them because they were hazed are never proud enough of their letters to tell us the name of their organization.

Those advocates of hazing tend to talk about the strong versus the weak... I contend that it takes a much stronger chapter to not give in to the temptation to haze and a much stronger new member to stand up against those that attempt to haze.

But then again, I wasn't hazed so I must not know the TRUE value of Greek Membership.

[This message has been edited by AlphaXiGirl (edited April 12, 2001).]

------------------
MCCOYRED
Mu Psi '86
BaltCo Alumnae

Dynamic...Salient...Temperate...Since 1913

[gammazetagrl]

I wasn't hazed in any way during my pledge period--like some other posts I've read, the bigs always asked us whether we felt comfortable doing something and to speak up if we didn't. we were also guided by 'parents' (i luv my pledge mom, she's the best)who advised us about requirements and led us every step of the way. i've heard very credible "hazing" stories straight from its sources from other chapters (although their nationals forbid it of course)...Many times I've had a friend pledge XYZ and knock on my dorm room at the wee hours of morning looking tired and is just seeking a friend to support him and encourage him to keep on. I mean, I could only say, "i cannot speak for you...if you feel that this is such unnecessary stress physically and emotionally, then quit. it's up to you to decide but whatever you choose i'll always be here for you"... and when i go visit XYZ's house or attend a function of theirs, i do notice that they seem to have a strong bond between the actives and pledges, although a stronger bond between members of the same pledge class. So i guess hazing DOES create a sense of unity in a way but i dont agree to it to the point where they endanger lives or humiliate someone to a great extent....I mean i wasn't hazed at all and we have the same strong ties in our organization. I guess you really can't change a chapter's practices if that's what they have been doing for years and if they're unwilling to do it, then they won't.

PS: some hazing examples that I've been told: something to do w/ goldfish (eep), 48 hours of sleep deprivation, physical activities such as a "long gym class" w/ jumping jacks, push ups, etc.

[DeltAlum]

Two more chapters have been closed due to hazing. DKE at Washington and TKE at Ohio State.

In the DKE case, this happened while the chapter, university and national are facing wrongful death litigation for a suicide which was allegedly caused by a "hell week" type of initiation.

Chapters that haze lose charters.

Its against the law.

Still.

DeltAlum

[RUgreek]

Originally posted by DeltAlum:
Two more chapters have been closed due to hazing. DKE at Washington and TKE at Ohio State.

In the DKE case, this happened while the chapter, university and national are facing wrongful death litigation for a suicide which was allegedly caused by a "hell week" type of initiation.

Chapters that haze lose charters.

Its against the law.

Still.

DeltAlum

Not that I'm looking to start anything, but I would like to enter in an opinion with respect to what's legal, against the law, or right. Just because something is against the law, it doesn't mean that it's wrong or right. Don't forget it wasn't that long ago that students were fighting for civil rights, which wasn't legal for everyone. I don't think all hazing is right, but at the same time, not all of it is wrong. There is a fine line between what should and should not be allowed. Yes, I do feel that events that lead to wrongful deaths of pledges are something to check out, but I refuse to believe that absolute complete hazing is wrong. Hell, the government doesn't even follow its own rules with the military, what kind of example is that setting for the rest of us ?

Honestly, there are a million other things out there and people break laws all the time. It's difficult to set standards for something like hazing, but there needs to be a better solution than just saying "you can't do anything." Look how well it's working already, do you really think just saying it's illegal is enough of a deterrent? It's time to start thinking of better ways to stop the bad hazing while teaching young americans about the risks and dangers involved with drinking and senseless violence.

And one more thing, what the heck happened to the naked olympics at princeton? I loved reading the stories about them each year, but it's been quiet recently.... Later!

RUgreek

[DeltAlum]

Yup.

There are lots of dumb laws/rules. And I was in college in the 60's and remember the Civil Rights struggle as well as the anti war movement very clearly.

But that doesn't change the fact that, right now -- in this place and time, if your chapter is caught hazing -- you'll lose your charter.

Unless you can change the law and/or the rules. And some probably need to be changed. It's not going to happen, though, as long as people keep getting killed or beaten -- and as long as the litigation and liability issues remain.

DeltAlum

[Tom Earp]

Delta Alum, very well stated! In this sphere of time live by the rules or get punished! But the problem is, that in these situations, all Greeks get punished! It is never just a certain Frqthernity/Soroity in trouble it is the whole of Greekdom! If one does, then we must all do! That is the perspective to the uneducated out in the world of DAH!

------------------
Tom Earp LX Z#1
Pittsburg State U. (Kansas)

[AlphaSigLana]

My sorority doesn't haze, but we new members must show respect to the elders. We do this by: giving up our space on the couch if there is no room and we sit on the floor. We stand for alumnae. We show our support for our house through simple gestures. I'm sure we do more, but they aren't coming to me right now. Any way the elders in the house have earned it and they are the ones who have kept our house running. This year I will be a sophomre in the house so the new girls will be giving up their seats. I believe we earn privelages being in a sorority is a privelage not a right. The elders keep us in the house by showing how much they care for the house and that includes not hazing us. If girls were hazed chances are many would deactivate and ASA wouldn't exist on my campus. Simple non abusive hazing is ok- i.e making the new girls pick up the mess after spring formal so the seniors wouldn't have to. I think that is okay.
I have met fraternity members who were hazed and said it gave them more respect for their fraternity. SO maybe guys are different, but I know I couldn't put up with be abused.

[Corbin Dallas]

Originally posted by AXPAlum:
I don't see any harm in what your chapter is doing either, but surprise surprise, those activities are classified as hazing. The only difference is that you are describing what new members do when they enter the sorority, not what pledges do. So I guess on that note, no one could get in trouble, right?

It's still hazing. When they become members instead of pledging, hazing doesn't magically disappear. Things like that are against LXA policy because it creates separation of classes. I'm not saying either way is right or wrong, just saying it isn't any less against the rules once they become members. It's just like hazing isn't limited to greeks. It happens in sports, military, clubs, and even high school. At my high school, after Dazed and confused came out, they started doing that stuff to the incoming freshmen. I'm not sure what they do now, but I know my cousin snuck home after the last day of school so he wouldn't "get it" Luckily, he lives accross the road from the school.

------------------
Steve Corbin
Lambda Chi Alpha
Theta Kappa Chapter
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech.

[AXPAlum]

Originally posted by AlphaSigLana:
My sorority doesn't haze, but we new members must show respect to the elders. We do this by: giving up our space on the couch if there is no room and we sit on the floor. We stand for alumnae. We show our support for our house through simple gestures. I'm sure we do more, but they aren't coming to me right now. Any way the elders in the house have earned it and they are the ones who have kept our house running. This year I will be a sophomre in the house so the new girls will be giving up their seats. I believe we earn privelages being in a sorority is a privelage not a right. The elders keep us in the house by showing how much they care for the house and that includes not hazing us. If girls were hazed chances are many would deactivate and ASA wouldn't exist on my campus. Simple non abusive hazing is ok- i.e making the new girls pick up the mess after spring formal so the seniors wouldn't have to. I think that is okay.
I have met fraternity members who were hazed and said it gave them more respect for their fraternity. SO maybe guys are different, but I know I couldn't put up with be abused.

I don't see any harm in what your chapter is doing either, but surprise surprise, those activities are classified as hazing. The only difference is that you are describing what new members do when they enter the sorority, not what pledges do. So I guess on that note, no one could get in trouble, right?

[clubmaneternal]

Two years ago I would have strenuously disagreed with the "hazing is good" sentiment; now, however, I'm beginning to have second thoughts. As a brother in the Pi Kappa Alpha chapter at Princeton University, I'm thoroughly aware of the strict prohibitions set on hazing by most international Greek organizations. During our fall rush this past year, we chose to emphasize this policy with our prospective rushees and ended up with the sorriest bunch of pledges I've ever encountered. On my campus, at least, it seems as though the best male Greek prospects WANT to be hazed--they want those hardships precisely because enduring them becomes a badge of honor and a source for rueful and hilarious "Remember whens...". I'm certain that explanation of hazing policies to potential pledges will be the crucial issue in planning our chapter's strategy for this coming fall's rush; I'm not so certain of how we'll resolve it. My own experience has been that a rushee who wants blanket assurance that he will not be hazed or otherwise f***ed with is not truly committed to making ANY of the sacrifices necessary to complete a successful pledgeship. I wish that weren't the case at Princeton, but it is.

Comments or questions are welcome.

Andrew Martin, Princeton '02

{Artimis: Edited single word for content}

[This message has been edited by Artimis (edited August 06, 2001).]

[Tom Earp]

I would like to know what you mean by how you haze? If is than you sir give me another as in swating or do mean by making the rushees learn about the International and local history, or make them do study time, or what? Please enlighten the rest of us!
If they have to swill so much alcohol then please inform us, or have to go out and do dangerous things then please inform us!
I for one would like to know if you do all of the abusive things then woe be you, if not then the best to your house!

------------------
Tom Earp LX Z#1
Pittsburg State U. (Kansas)

[N2]

Lil_G,

Because I am not free to discuss the issues that I have here in public. The anonymity allows the free (or somewhat freely) open discussion. The public discussion of anything that my chapter does in our pledge period is strictly prohibited. The bottom line is the fact that you want to know my e-mail address. What possible reason could you, or anyone else, have to know that?

I have no desire to have a private conversation with anyone outside of my Brothers on the subjet of this board. The risk is simply too large.

[N2]

Andrew,

You are correct. You can search this site for my previous post to place my comments in context. My chapter is at a mid-sized private university. Our pledge period is virtually unchanged in 30+ years. Our reputation on campus is that our pledge period is a "bitch", and it is. Of course its behind closed doors now, but the word gets out each and every year. We do nothing to dispute the rumors, by design, while admitting nothing. The result is that those who are looking for a free ride don't even bother to get involved. The line to get in our door is always fairly long. We usually only pledge 40% or so of those requesting bids. The bottom line is that by allowing the rumors to persist and the fact that it is known the we are very selective, we attract the very best.

[Mariposa13]

On my campus, our sorority is not the biggest nor most popular, but is viewed as one of the most secretive, with the tightest closed doors. We don't reveal any part of our ritual to anyone. We also have a national no-hazing policy, and are both the first and the loudest to say it. We are proud of our traditions, which have remained the same since the start of our sorority. We are also proud that WE DON'T HAZE. we don't feel that it is necessary, nor right. You can and should have a brotherly/sisterly bond by sharing ritual, the most special part of your GLO. Ritual should be the bond that brings your pledges/new members/members/alum together again and again. When I pledged, if anyone had asked to to do anything that I didn't like, or tried to tell me hazing was ok, I would have dropped right then. As an Alumnae, I still feel the same way. I won't try to tell those who believe hazing is ok that they are wrong. I would just say that I am sorry. I'm sorry that you couldn't enjoy the bonds of brotherhood/sisterhood without resorting to something as degrading, harmful (not necessarily physically) and sad, as hazing.

[Brandeis]

to whomever thinks that hazing is bad. Shut up! It's people like you that are going to cry and whine about every hardship that comes your way. Don't you realize that hazing is what separates the gdis from the greeks?! You have to go through the appropriate rites and traditions, like everyone else before you. In addition, to get something good, one must go through some difficulties- otherwise everyone would be doing it! And don't even attempt to compare slavery and hazing. nuff said