Poor ole Jeb

[dekeguy]

Just got in from lectures and caught up on this thread. Wow! I have been accused of having a rather dry sense of humor, but perhaps it is a bit too dry in that I think some might have missed it alltogether. Yes I am somewhat conservative, but I do think it is not only possible but necessary for all holders of differing opinions to be able to discuss these opinions with good will and a little humor thrown in now and again.
My comment about the "loyal opposition" was sourced from former Representative Lindy Boggs (D-La), a great lady whose liberal credentials are very well established. I believe Mrs. Boggs has always maintained that a responsible citizen has a choice in this country, loyalty to the nation and support for the administration or being part of the "Loyal Opposition" true to the nation but disagreeing with current policy and working for a change to policy while being a good citizen. I think she would also hold that part of being a good citizen is to seek change to that with which one disagrees while remaining loyal to the nation. I believe that this definition is very inclusive and if one isn't "loyal and 'for' the current policy" or "loyal and 'against' the current policy" (the key word here is loyal) then one must be awfully apathetic or, dare I think it, disloyal!
Since the legal definition of treason is very strict and my use of the term traitor in its context wasn't even close in fitting that definition I had hoped that the mild tounge-in-cheek nature of the comment would be recognized.
So, to recap this and my previous comment: I live in Virginia so I refrained from comment on Florida schools. I don't know Mr. Bush's daughter so I refrained from comment on what I considered a sad personal family matter. I have met Gov. Bush on several occasions, primarily socially, and I like the guy. In case you missed it, my comment about "yellow journalists" refers to a segment of media writers/editors/publishers who were active just over a hundred years ago. I believe the term pretty much died out of common useage rather a long time ago. Again, perhaps a bit too dry. Anyway, I suggest we lighten this up a little. Serious issues seem to come to consensus more easily when humor and good will triumph over P.C. and rancor.

[KSig RC]

To my mind (and I'm a registered Republican), there is a world of difference between Jenna Bush's situation and that of Noelle.

Sometimes when looking at legal violations it has to be viewed through a non-polarized filter of what the "average person" has happen.

Jenna Bush: college freshman, drinks, has (really bad) fake ID . . .

none of this is shocking, or even abnormal. Illegal? Sure - but if I got caught with my fake ID drinking in a bar, they'd NEVER call the cops, but they did to her. She got out of it - I would have too, so would everyone else.

Noelle Bush: cocaine. Lots of it.

Crack cocaine. While in rehab.

This is NOT normal behavior for someone her age - there comes a time when you have to step out of your familial life and realize that the law is the law, and most likely she'll end up in jail.

Sucks - but that's life Jeb.

PS - no reason to idict his parenting skills, there's a lot more involved than just parenting when your child is a 'public figure' (as was put earlier) - we don't know much of the circumstances surrounding their family etc. It seems like petty partisan bickering to call him a bad father. Let's just leave it at bad politician, if that's how you feel.

He's not exactly Huey P. Long over here.

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by KSig RC
PS - no reason to idict his parenting skills, there's a lot more involved than just parenting when your child is a 'public figure' (as was put earlier) - we don't know much of the circumstances surrounding their family etc. It seems like petty partisan bickering to call him a bad father. Let's just leave it at bad politician, if that's how you feel.

He's not exactly Huey P. Long over here.

Actually I wasn't saying he was being a bad father, not at all. I was wondering what during her upbringing would cause her to turn to drugs. Jeb has not been such a public figure forever. I have no idea what kind of father he is, so it would be presumptuous of me to say he was bad. I was saying that, NOW as a father, he needs to step up because he is beginning to come under very close scrutiny for the actions of his daughter.

Didn't mean to be so vague about that.

dekeguy.... dry sense of humor or not, one does not have to support the president to be a good citizen. I am not sure about the context of the word "loyal" in all of that, so I won't even assume. Let's just agree to disagree about this one because I am not up for a debate on semantics. I do respect the way you articulated your posts in an intelligent and non-threatening way. You may be a bit conservative, but I always appreciate a southern gentlemen!

[justamom]

dekeguy- I had to go looking for you since I hadn't run into one of your posts lately. Lo and behold, KSig RC!

Good points all around and thought provoking on both sides of the discussion!

[kdonline]

Originally posted by librasoul22


Actually I wasn't saying he was being a bad father, not at all. I was wondering what during her upbringing would cause her to turn to drugs. Jeb has not been such a public figure forever. I have no idea what kind of father he is

Jeb was born a public figure. His grandfather, Prescott Bush, was a senator. George had a lifetime of public service.

This is one of the downsides of becoming a public figure. As soon as you do anything to put yourself in the public light, you are a public figure.

When you run for office, you are subject to the same scrutiny, and unfortunately, your family is too.

Anyone who is considering a run for office - even your local city council - should realize this.

[dekeguy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lionlove
[B]


I do find it incredibly offensive though when posters like pbpck and dekeguy say that if you don't agree with the Bush administrator you are an uneducated traitor. One of the things that I love about our country is our ability as citizens to voice opinions about our government. This can be done with ballots, letters, protests, and by many other forms. Maybe I misread the definition of "loyal opposition" but I got the impression that if you don't agree with the current administration (whoever they may be, not just Bush) then shut up and smile cause it is your patriotic duty to present a united front. As for showing interfraternal support for Bush, well, I don't necessarily agree with my own sisters sometimes. Why should I support a guy who isn't in my organization just because he is greek?

********

If you are going to be terribly offended please do me the favor of re-reading my post and its follow ups. I think you will find that I have not called anyone an uneducated traitor. What I have done is:
express my personal opinion that I like Gov Bush and sympathize with his family disappointment, which is really none of my business other than to wish him well in a difficult private situation;
point out that I think that as our moderators are consistently and often times reminding us we should extend courtesy, not necessarily approval, agreement, or admiration, but courtesy to fellow Greeks we should extend this courtesy to the President who is after all a real undergraduate initiate Greek and chapter president, not just an honorary;
and that as we do seem to be in a shooting war with some rather unpleasant types who have murdered nearly three thousand innocent bystander Americans and a considerable number of innocent victims from other lands who were caught in the various blast effects, it occurs to me that Mrs. Boggs' definition of Loyal Opposition seems very appropriate to our current situatipn.
As I pointed out in my follow-up, I thought my slightly tounge-in-cheek comment about being loyal and for the administration, loyal and opposed to the administration, or a traitor would have been obviously seen for what it was, a bit of lightening up a very serious issue while expressing my opinion.
That was your point I believe? The bit about voicing opinions? Anyway, I did not say anything about "shut up and smile". I personally would appreciate it if all Americans would present a united front as I would hate to see our troops who are now engaged, and those who might yet be, not supported by the American people. But that is my personal hope. Now, to be very clear on this point, being a loyal American, united with other Americans, resolved to win this war on terrorism and in support of our troops and presenting a united front does not imply lock step approval of any particular administration's policies. There is plenty of room for disagreement and working to change policy through the ballot box and the forum of public opinion, so long as one's activities do not encourage or give aid and comfort to the enemy. Well, thats my opinion. I hope you are not terribly offended by it and I hope that we can agree on much if not all of what I have tried to express. It is, however, my opinion and I must stand by it. Please do consider how much we can agree on?

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by kdonline



Jeb was born a public figure. His grandfather, Prescott Bush, was a senator. George had a lifetime of public service.

This is one of the downsides of becoming a public figure. As soon as you do anything to put yourself in the public light, you are a public figure.

When you run for office, you are subject to the same scrutiny, and unfortunately, your family is too.

Anyone who is considering a run for office - even your local city council - should realize this.

Good point. I meant he was never in such a powerful position where he was thrust into the spotlight... but you are absolutely right.

[DeltAlum]

Here are a couple of opinions. They are just that. They are mine. They are not necessarily facts. I think they're correct, or they wouldn't be my opinions. Follow that? OK.

If George Bush The First had fully prosecuted the first Mid-East war, Sadam would not be a problem to us now. He would almost certainly be dead or in prison. Certainly, he would be out of power.

If the Bush girls in question are guilty of nothing else, they're guilty of being dumb. They're in the public eye. Jena in particular. If you're going to do something illegal -- don't do it in public. At least if you're the presidents daughter. Yes, that's a double standard. I don't know if it's fair. But when your dad becomes a politician, that's the way it is. They know it. Shoud Noelle go to jail? That's for a court to decide, not me.

There isn't much a parent can do, whether they're the governor or not, to keep their children off of drugs. I think we're pretty good parents, but our middle daughter got into drugs -- fairly heavily. We hated it, we fought it, but it still happened. No problems whatsoever with the other two. Any adict will tell you that they are the best con-persons in the world. My experience tells me it would be difficult not to have suspicions that your children are on drugs, but there really is often not much you can do about it. Thankfully, our daughter realized, before it was too late, what harm she was doing to herself and came to us to ask if we would pay for rehab. It was the happiest money I've ever spent. She never go caught. Getting caught multiple times may be worse than dumb -- on several levels.

Finally, as regards opposing a presidents policies. That's why we have a multi-party system. That's what the entire concept of checks and ballances and, yes, the loyal opposition is about. It's one of the important lessons we learned from our British roots. Presidents are human and can be as wrong as anyone else. They can get bad advice. War does not change that equation. Consider Vietnam. If a large part of a generation (mine) had not expressed (sometimes inappropriately, but that's beside the point) their displeasure, that could have gone on much longer with a much greater loss of life. For what? In the end, the outcome probably wouldn't haven been different. With history as its judge, it would appear that the majority of the Vietnamese people didn't feel very strongly one way or another about how we thought they should run their government. They simply wanted to live their lives. I also think it's important to remember that Vietnam crossed the terms of four presidents -- two Republican, two Democrats. (Before anyone takes issue, it's pretty well documented that the first "advisors" were sent by Eisenhower) In my opinion (there's that word again), "America, Love it or Leave It" is a dangerous concept when used in the context of not being allowed to express opposing viewpoints.

So, now you have my opinions. For whatever they're worth. But shouldn't all opinions be equal? And at least respected?


And now for the small print disclaimer. The author does not consider himself either Republic or Democrat/Liberal or Conservative. Since "Vote 18" was passed in time for the 1968 election, he has probably voted for an equal number of Republican and Democratic presidential candidates -- including one Bush. The reason he offers "opinions" here is that over the years, he has learned that neither his or anyone else's ideas are totally correct. Over and out.

[Peaches-n-Cream]

Everyone here has raised interesting points. The issue here is the criminalization of a medical problem called drug addiction. This young woman needs help. She comes from a wealthy, prominent family and yet she still uses drugs. I think it demonstrates how powerful a grip drugs can have on an addict's life. I mean if a woman who is the neice and granddaughter of two US President and the daughter of a governor cannot recover, what does that say about the treatment of addiction in the less fortunate members of society?

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Cream
I think it demonstrates how powerful a grip drugs can have on an addict's life. I mean if a woman who is the neice and granddaughter of two US President and the daughter of a governor cannot recover, what does that say about the treatment of addiction in the less fortunate members of society?

Perhaps the most important point made so far.

And because of the way the presidential election was handled in Florida, I'm not a Jeb Bush fan at the moment. But, as a father who had a child with an addiction, I feel for him as a man. They tell you, during the rehab period, that parents should not feel guilty about their children becoming drug users. That's absolutely true -- but it's also impossible at least to some extent.

You just can't help wonder if there wasn't one more little thing you might have done to prevent it.

Usually, there isn't. But you still wonder.

[KappaKittyCat]

Excellent point, Cream. We've criminalized diseases because our society cannot accept their societal roots.

It's safe to say that Noelle Bush has made some poor choices. If she was expelled from high school for her drug problems, it's also probably safe to say that the key choices, the ones that could have averted this entire situation, occurred a long time ago. The issue is that now she cannot disentangle herself from the web of addiction in which she is caught. The woman is ill.

It's my understanding that Miss Bush has violated the conditions of her rehab. In my opinion, it's time to ask whether she wants to get better. If she wants to get better, then she's going to have to go through some tough times, but I think that a continued rehab attempt is the answer. If she doesn't care whether she keeps doing drugs and is just sorry that she was caught, then I think that prison is in order. But that's just my outsider's view.

Alternative sentencing programs can work. The mother of one of my friends is a social worker employed by the state of Wisconsin. She (a DDD!) works with alternative sentencing programs for drug offenders. The programs work; those who go through the rehab have a much lower percentage of repeat offences. I am very much in favour of these programs. Drug addiction is a disease that creeps up on its victims. One or two bad choices can have massive repercussions years down the road, as Miss Bush is demonstrating right now.

Not to spark a huge racial debate, but... the program in Wisconsin of which I speak is only open to those who have not been convicted of violent crimes. They'll take possession, possesion with intent, dealing, even petty larceny. But anything like armed robbery, aggravated assault, or battery will disqualify an offender. The program is currently being blasted in the press because the percentage of minorities enrolled in the program is not proportionate to the percentage of minorities in Wisconsin's prisons. The problem is that if you're a minority in a Wisconsin prison, chances are good that you were convicted of some sort of violent offence. The proportion of minority nonviolent offenders in the prisons to minorities in the program are pretty close.

Also, to KSig RC, I was not suggesting that Jenna and Noelle Bush are at all in the same boat. Jenna is behaving like any college student. Noelle is ill. What they do have in common is the fact that both of them are public figures just by virtue of their parents' and grandparents' positions. They need to be aware that they are being watched carefully and that their actions reflect on their family.

My other question is this. Obviously Noelle's family is wealthy, so she can be sent to a ritzy private rehab clinic. How on earth did she get her hands on any drug, let alone crack, while in this facility? I mean, I can see swiping some Percoset or Valium, but crack? That's not the sort of thing that rehab clinics keep on hand.

[librasoul22]

Okay, here's the latest article abuot Noelle from the Tallahassee Democrat. We have pretty much discussed most of it, but it goes into a bit more detail...

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/democrat/4055536.htm

[James]

Parents should feel partly responsible . . . not necessarily guilty.

Keep in mind that there are many functional addicts.

Also there are many people with addictive personalities that exhibit a lot of the behaviors of the addict: Small mindedness, vindictiveness, intolerance, deception, but don't actually have a curent chemical addiction.

Many of them post here on GC. Just review the post histories and you will read some of them.

Originally posted by DeltAlum

Perhaps the most important point made so far.

And because of the way the presidential election was handled in Florida, I'm not a Jeb Bush fan at the moment. But, as a father who had a child with an addiction, I feel for him as a man. They tell you, during the rehab period, that parents should not feel guilty about their children becoming drug users. That's absolutely true -- but it's also impossible at least to some extent.

You just can't help wonder if there wasn't one more little thing you might have done to prevent it.

Usually, there isn't. But you still wonder.

[The1calledTKE]

Once again it pays to be the governor's daughter and the Presidents niece, she just got only 10 days of prison for the crack she was caught with while on probabtion. Most people would get alot more time than that.

[librasoul22]

Originally posted by zntke711
Once again it pays to be the governor's daughter and the Presidents niece, she just got only 10 days of prison for the crack she was caught with while on probabtion. Most people would get alot more time than that.

Don't get me started (again, lol).