Depositions Underway In AKA Drowning Lawsuit

[pretty3grl]

I do want to say that I do not believe that a proposal to eliminate undergraduate chapters would receive a favorable vote in any of the BGLOs. Because of how we are formed, nationals could not just make a policy like this with the support of a majority of it's financial members. I think that there is a reason that this vote would not pass. GLO outside of the D9 have dealt with hazing on an entirely different level than BGLOs have, yet they continue to have undergrad chapters. Why? Well, I think it is because we ALL were founded on college campuses to enrich the lives of college students, and a large part of our history is there. Without undergraduate chapters, we essentially stop being the Sorority that are, and the Sorority that we were founded to be. In short, without undergraduate chapters, Alpha Kappa Alpha would not be Alpha Kappa Alpha (remember, it was graduate chapters that were added, not the other way around). We would simply be a service organization like the Links, and believe me I feel that we are quite different. I think that others agree, or why else would people join both? They each offer something different to their members.
It is difficult to change mentality, but I truly do not believe that the MAJORITY of those who join any of our illustrious organizations are bad seeds. Unfortunately, the actions of a few impact us all. I just don't think that the answer is to "throw out the baby with the bathwater." There have likely been "fools" on college campus since there have been college campuses, but as we grow larger, the likelihood that these "fools" will join our ranks has increased.
I noticed that many of the GLO outside of the D9 require that undergraduate chapters purchase their own hazard insurance. Perhaps we need to look into this. I see no problem with adding background checks, and also, perhaps we need to look at having a probationary period after initiation so that we have more time to shape the mentality of new members before they are allowed to participate in intake activities.

[dsmmi12]

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6


I can see the resistance to the elimination of undergrad chapters, and that's to be expected. However, in AMERICA, life is about choices and consequences. IF at age 24 or 25 you're still willing to subject yourself to nonsense, (this applies to graduate level) with a career, house, kids, or in graduate school etc....that's on you,...... Undergrad chapters are becoming too much of an expense, and one of the members of the divine 9 is going to go bankrupt trying to hold on to these chapters....... but if folx think it will be to the same extent that undergrads get into trouble, .......I don't know what to say about that kind of thought process...

What's better,,,,,,,hold on to undergrad chapters...........or hold on to the Sorority???

I dont think anyone is criticizing what you are saying. Nor do i expect you to totally understand. Obviously there are those here who pledged through undergraduate chapters and therfore see the relavance of thier presence in the organizations. (Not to mention the impact it had on thier lives) Our organization was BUILT on the undergraduate chapter. AND in response to getting rid of them...THEY WILL NOT END THE PROBLEMS OF HAZING. (nor are they 60% of the problem) Think about the numbers.....If collegiates are 60% of the problem and they go on to join alumnae chapters......Then what percentage does that now make the alumnae chapter responsible for the problems........think about it. The graduate chapters today are (for the most part) Women who pledged on the undergraduate level.

I applaud the fact that you had a "nonsense free" process BUT dont think for ONE minute that graduate chapters are not guilty of the BROAD def. of Hazing. They just dont get reported as much BOTTOM LINE. I am sorry but Alumnae chapters have the largest incident of membership intake violations dealing with simple procedural process.

AND...I will go on to say that it is really not the reality that the majority of Collegiate Chapters are those who are causing the "Legal Liability" of the sorority. The majority of "hazers" so to speak are not walking around thinking of new and improved Death defying acts of hazing. I am in no way justifying it but we have GOT TO STOP THIS COLLEGIATE ARE THE DEATH OF DELTA (I can only speak for Delta) mentality. It is not the case AT ALL.

I say this as a soror who pledged in a collegiate chapter, went on to active status in an Alumnae chapter and am now a collegiate advisor. I mean no harm or disrespect to anyone....but we have got to stop thinking that elimination of a carrier is going to cure the disease.

[dsmmi12]

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6


At this point I will just agree to disagree........

Like I said earlier.....hold on to undergrad chapters or hold on to the sorority.......the research is out there! I'm just glad my Sorority and Omega have taken the first step to exposing the bad apples in OUR organizations.

Also Soror, you need to know that those who stand accused on the Delta Dsciplinary Action report are not neccesarrily there for hazing. There are "non-hazing" incidents on this list as well. Not to mention, I dont think we should be so quick to lable our sorors as "bad apples" You never know the consequence of why they are there in the first place OR if they are/were even guilty of what they were accused.

[12dn94dst]

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6

What's better,,,,,,,hold on to undergrad chapters...........or hold on to the Sorority???

It would also be more helpful if people could give suggestions instead of just critiscizing what is being said.

Neither is "better." When I crossed undergrad, my letters looked exactly the same as the letters worn by members of the local alumnae chapter. the letters collegiates wear now are exactly the same as the one I wear now as an alumnae member. Nowhere on those three lovely symbols is there a distinction between alumnae & collegiate. We need to be in this together. If not, division, not hazing lawsuits, will be the death of us.

Granted, one HEARS about hazing incidents involving collegiates more than one HEARS about hazing incidents involving alumnae. But is that really the case? It's kinda like saving an injured limb. I'm not going to cut off my leg just because it's broken in several places. I'm going to have surgery to put pins in it for STRENGTH and SUPPORT for the bone which is the foundation of all that allows me to use my legs to walk, run, skip & step . I'm going to put a cast on it for STABILITY while it heals. In a few months when the cast comes off, I'm not going to be able to walk on it like I used to because the muscles will be weak. So I need to do therapy to FURTHER STRENGTHEN that leg so I can do all that I used to do with it before it was broken. True enough, if I cut off my leg it's not broken anymore. But at the same time, I don't have my leg. I can't walk like i want to, I can't run like I used to. I'll have difficulty going about my business of being me.


The processes that are in place now have been as such for roughly 12 years and (caps for emphasis) IN MY OPINION, we haven't done everything we can to resolve this ORGANIZATIONAL issue. We have a way to go before we get to the point of disbanding undergraduate chapters. Changing member mentality about the "respect" given those who "pledged" is a start. Getting rid of this condescending alumnae v. collegiate mentality is another. That's all I'm going to say because my views on this topic and how it relates to Delta are not appropriate for a public message board.


No one is criticizing what anyone has to say. Part of any healthy discussion, like this one, is the expression opposing views. Some of them are given to get the participants to consider a different point of view.

Remember, not all conflict is bad. Without conflict, there is no struggle. Without struggle, there is no progress.

[Love_Spell_6]

Only time will tell. If/When one of the orgs goes bankrupt.......it'll be too little too late, and this whole discussion will be moot.

[mccoyred]

The elimination of undergraduate chapters will not eliminate hazing. In my opinion, three things are required internally:

1) more rigorous screening process, ie background checks, 2 letters of rec, multistep interview process, etc

2) more indepth certification process for those responsible for conducting the intake

3) reinstatement of a longer, more aboveground pledge process w/ severe penalties (expulsion, criminal prosecution) for those who are proven to recklessly or maliciously endanger a candidate

By taking these steps, we can eventually eliminate hazers within our ranks and screen the orgs from this type of liability. The corporate entities of our org cannot be responsible for those who are unrecognized. Unfortunately, non-Greeks are just as much to blame for this whole 'respect' aspect of intake.

[Eclipse]

Background checks sound good, and from a liability standpoint might be a good thing, but they will probably not weed out the crazies. I went to college in the 80s and I know some girls that were perfectly sweet freshman year and turned into Carrie, that chick from the Exorcist and Rosemary's baby rolled into one after they pledged. I'm sure any background check on them would have shown no antisocial behavior in high school. Now something that would be better, but would NEVER fly would be a personality test. Does this person has TENDENCIES to do something crazy? If course if it was retro a lotta folks would be worried! lol

mccoy red I also don't think that "above gound" pledging, at least as we probably remember it, is the answer either. I'm sure you know that a LOT of stuff happened before the rush/tea and before people were officially on line. I certainly liked seeing the pagentry of pledgees being dressed alike, walking in line, etc. I also had the pleasure of helping out several friends who were on like and I remember the "fun" of stealing and hiding them from their bid sisters/brothers, but remember that in most states those things would be against the law as acts of hazing. Now what might be appropriate is to announce to the school that these people are undergoing membership intake for X organization. That way, people will know who is pledging and will be watchful of any changes in their behavior. This should include professors. Just like teachers have a responsiblity to report signs of abuse in their students professors should have the same responsibilty, even though these folks are supposed to be adults.

I've been reading a lot of posts on this and other websites and I think that more active involvement from the graduate members of the various organizations is the only think that is going to get close to making a difference. I'm talking about grown men/women with jobs and family showing up on the yard on a Friday afternoon, stopping by the cafeteria on a Wednesday afternoon, going to the parties, step shows, community service events and announcing to everyone in attendance that ABC organization is non-hazing, this is how to define hazing and here is a 1-800 number to report any concerns. Problem is, will alum members do that?

There has to be major education on all parts as well. I'd like to see the NPHC commission a video that shows people who are the victims of hazing. I'm talking about the men who can't have children because of injuries sustained while on line, parents who's children were killed, folks banned for life and or who had to spend time in jail or pay some heafty fine, folks who did not find the sister/brother hood that they were looking for talking about their experiences. It's easy to say don't haze, but when folks see the consequences of that hazing it is a different story. This video could even be done in conjuction with the IFC and NPC and sent to every college campus in the nation. Every school has some sort of freshman orientation. Perfect place to show it.

Bottom line is we are talking about a serious culture change--not only in these organizations, but in our country. There was a time that sexual harassment was the norm, not the exception, in major corporations. Secretaries expected to be chased around the desk and there wasn't a darn thing they could do about it. Through many major lawsuits, law changes and education things have gotten better, and unfortunately that may be what has to happen here.

[12dn94dst]

Originally posted by Eclipse
I've been reading a lot of posts on this and other websites and I think that more active involvement from the graduate members of the various organizations is the only think that is going to get close to making a difference. I'm talking about grown men/women with jobs and family showing up on the yard on a Friday afternoon, stopping by the cafeteria on a Wednesday afternoon, going to the parties, step shows, community service events and announcing to everyone in attendance that ABC organization is non-hazing, this is how to define hazing and here is a 1-800 number to report any concerns.

I couldn't agree more!

Originally posted by Eclipse
Problem is, will alum members do that?

And that is the million dollar question. Ironic (and kind of sad if you ask me), isn't it?

[mccoyred]

Originally posted by Eclipse
Background checks sound good, and from a liability standpoint might be a good thing, but they will probably not weed out the crazies. I went to college in the 80s and I know some girls that were perfectly sweet freshman year and turned into Carrie, that chick from the Exorcist and Rosemary's baby rolled into one after they pledged. I'm sure any background check on them would have shown no antisocial behavior in high school. Now something that would be better, but would NEVER fly would be a personality test. Does this person has TENDENCIES to do something crazy? If course if it was retro a lotta folks would be worried! lol

The reason for the multilevel interviews is just that! I also thought about psychological tests that would help expose underlying tendencies.

Originally posted by Eclipse

mccoy red I also don't think that "above gound" pledging, at least as we probably remember it, is the answer either. I'm sure you know that a LOT of stuff happened before the rush/tea and before people were officially on line. I certainly liked seeing the pagentry of pledgees being dressed alike, walking in line, etc. I also had the pleasure of helping out several friends who were on like and I remember the "fun" of stealing and hiding them from their bid sisters/brothers, but remember that in most states those things would be against the law as acts of hazing. Now what might be appropriate is to announce to the school that these people are undergoing membership intake for X organization. That way, people will know who is pledging and will be watchful of any changes in their behavior. This should include professors. Just like teachers have a responsiblity to report signs of abuse in their students professors should have the same responsibilty, even though these folks are supposed to be adults.

That is exactly why aboveground pledging has an advantage - everyone knows who is online including family, friends, professors, and alumnae members. While some of these people will try to cause harm, the overwhelming majority are on the lookout to make sure evrything is okay.

Originally posted by Eclipse

I've been reading a lot of posts on this and other websites and I think that more active involvement from the graduate members of the various organizations is the only think that is going to get close to making a difference. I'm talking about grown men/women with jobs and family showing up on the yard on a Friday afternoon, stopping by the cafeteria on a Wednesday afternoon, going to the parties, step shows, community service events and announcing to everyone in attendance that ABC organization is non-hazing, this is how to define hazing and here is a 1-800 number to report any concerns. Problem is, will alum members do that?

There has to be major education on all parts as well. I'd like to see the NPHC commission a video that shows people who are the victims of hazing. I'm talking about the men who can't have children because of injuries sustained while on line, parents who's children were killed, folks banned for life and or who had to spend time in jail or pay some heafty fine, folks who did not find the sister/brother hood that they were looking for talking about their experiences. It's easy to say don't haze, but when folks see the consequences of that hazing it is a different story. This video could even be done in conjuction with the IFC and NPC and sent to every college campus in the nation. Every school has some sort of freshman orientation. Perfect place to show it.

Good ideas. The National orgs need to try something different.

Originally posted by Eclipse

Bottom line is we are talking about a serious culture change--not only in these organizations, but in our country. There was a time that sexual harassment was the norm, not the exception, in major corporations. Secretaries expected to be chased around the desk and there wasn't a darn thing they could do about it. Through many major lawsuits, law changes and education things have gotten better, and unfortunately that may be what has to happen here.

Yes, secretaries expected to be chased around the desk by their boss, but I almost guarantee the the legal actions that broke open this whole sexual harrassment issue were not filed by or on behalf of secretaries!

[DELTABRAT]

This week's People Magazine has an article about this incident in it.

[Happydaysf91]

See Below!

Sorry!!

[Happydaysf91]

Well, personally...I wouldn't want to see the undergrads go away...however, there is much liability involved if we keep them around and cannot figure out a way to curb liability. Furthermore, like others have stated, this will not eradicate 'hazing' all together. We have seen where hazing occurs on the graduate level as well.....

I don't know what the solution is. And I know that some people will say (and have stated) that grad chapters need to be inovlved more and we need an above ground process. But my question is...how do you think we got here in the first place? When there was an above ground process, things occurred outside the mandated 'sessions'.

And as far as grad chapters/members and grad advisors.....you have to understand...they have lives too outside the organization. I used to be a grad advisor. And a good one! But the chapter I was over still was involved in hazing. I went to step shows, was at the fundraisers, community service activities, parties and etc. It's like raising children....you teach them to be good, outstanding citizens and tell them right from wrong and you send them into the world each day hoping and praying that they will make good, sound decisions. You can't watch them 24/7. Well, its the same with an undergrad chapter. You crossed the girls...have meetings, tell them not to haze and the consequences of such and etc. and you go home and hope and pray they will follow your organizations rules (rules they 'pledged' to abide by). However, like with your own kids, some are going to follow the rules and some are not. You cannot watch them 24/7.

I think someone eluded to an organization with a short process whose candidates/members may feel as though they are missing out on something. If you are joining any organization for simply the 'process'....you probably won't be around very much afterwards and we don't need you. The process mandated by my National organization, Alpha Kappa Alpha, is sufficient. Leaning does not end once you get in. It's a continuous process with numerous workshops/activities after you enter her precious doors. Therefore, if one feels that they are missing something because of the process...I say seek out another organization because we simply don't need anymore individuals who won't abide by our precious rules. Hopefully, they can provide you with what you are looking for.

Lastly...Kudos to DST and Omega Psi Phi for their disciplinary list on the web (listing suspended/expelled chapters/individuals). However, I often wonder now if we all need to provide a list of 'active'/'inactive' members as well. Inactive members as well as people who have never been part of our organizations (ghosts) can cause problems for us too. And none of us have this information posted or disseminated amongst the public.

Have a wonderful, blessed day.

[ladygreek]

Well said, Happydaysf91

[Three_Love]

Originally posted by Happydaysf91
If you are joining any organization for simply the 'process'....you won't probably be around very much afterwards and we don't need you. The process mandated by my National organization, Alpha Kappa Alpha, is sufficient. Learning does not end once you get in. It's a continuous process with numerous workshops/activities after you enter her precious doors. Therefore, if one feels that they are missing something because of the process...I say seek out another org. because we simply don't need anymore individuals who won't abide by our precious rules. Hopefully, they can provide you with what you are looking for.

Girl, you broke it down so it can now, forever, and consistently be BROKEN!!!

Ditto, double ditto, and TRIPLE ditto!!

Tell the truth, and shame the devil!!

(I can't think of any more ways to say, "you told the truth girl", LOL).

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by Happydaysf91
Well, personally...I wouldn't want to see the undergrads go away...however, there is much liability involved if we keep them around and cannot figure out a way to curb liability. Furthermore, like others have stated, this will not eradicate 'hazing' all together. We have seen where hazing occurs on the graduate level as well.....

I think someone eluded to an organization with a short process whose candidates/members may feel as though they are missing out on something. If you are joining any organization for simply the 'process'....you probably won't be around very much afterwards and we don't need you. The process mandated by my National organization, Alpha Kappa Alpha, is sufficient. Leaning does not end once you get in. It's a continuous process with numerous workshops/activities after you enter her precious doors. Therefore, if one feels that they are missing something because of the process...I say seek out another organization because we simply don't need anymore individuals who won't abide by our precious rules. Hopefully, they can provide you with what you are looking for. ....

Lastly...Kudos to DST and Omega Psi Phi for their disciplinary list on the web (listing suspended/expelled chapters/individuals). However, I often wonder now if we all need to provide a list of 'active'/'inactive' members as well. Inactive members as well as people who have never been part of our organizations (ghosts) can cause problems for us too. And none of us have this information posted or disseminated amongst the public.

ALAS!!!!!!!!!!!!! A ray of light!! This is about solutions and I think you hit the nail on the head. Grad members do not have the time to run behind each undergrad and tell them what to do, because they are adults and they are going to do what they want!

And you're right, if it came to banning undergrad chapters, (which no one wants) this won't end all hazing, but it would be a HUGE a step in a direction to curb the majority of it. And actually, some of the people on this board are sadly mistaken if they think nationals aren't seriously considering this as a solution. I don't know about you all, but I'd like to see my sorority around in 2013!! And that's what the goal is!

Someone stated that sororities started with undergrads....really??... But if this were still 1913, and our undergrads were lobbying to have meetings with the President of the US (as of our founders did), we wouldn't be even having this discussion. We are living in a different day and time, and the young people today are not the same as the 22 in 1913. We are living in a morally corrupt society and our value systems are drastically different from 2002 to 1913.

And lastly, this is NOT about grad vs. undergrad, that is idiotic. THIS IS ABOUT OUR ORGANIZATIONS BEING AROUND TO CELEBRATE 200 YEARS OF EXCELLENCE AND BEYOND!!!!!!!!!!!! Not about arguing who's better or not.

Oh yea, Happydaysf91 - thanks for mentioning the GHOSTS in our orgs!! From my experience they are the main ones trying to get a process together!!! If you aren't NATIONALLY recognized....... ..........nuff said!!