Updates on the whole college admissions business

[Rudey]

I'm going to have to argue with you on this point Certain places don't even hire at schools outside their target school list. Kids at my school are obsessed with incredibly competitive business positions. Outside of the top 10 schools it becomes incredibly difficult to obtain these jobs. And outside of the top 25 schools, it becomes close to impossible to get the jobs at all. These are jobs in investment banking, management consulting, etc. Even though my school is top 10, I was told by two firms that they don't even look outside of the top 3 schools in the country and I had no shot whatsoever. And it should also be noted that it's widely known within the business world that graduates from top mba programs move much faster up the corporate ladder than those with other mba's. This is to add and say it's not just medicine and law where your schooling matters.

-Rudey

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Just one final thought -- maybe.

The real reason to go to college is to prepare yourself to make a living in the "real world" (with appologies to MTV).

I've been a hiring manager for over twenty years, and during that time have hired only two people from my alma mater -- which is considered to be one of the very best broadcasting schools in the world.

Here's why...

I think in reality, where you go to school only really counts in "the professions" like medicine and law. What is really important is to get your first job and some experience. After that, it's only the fact that you have a degree from somewhere that counts. Experience is far more important.

And, I echo what some have said above that if you plan on grad school, that's the degree that really counts -- if only for the fact that it's the last one people read on your resume -- the bottom line, so to speak.

So, Newbie, if your heart is set on USC, and you can deal with the cost and loans at other stuff -- I wish you the very best. But, if you end up somewhere else, things will work out in the long run. Getting a degree is the most important part of the equation.

[newbie]

To sum up my feelings right now,

" I tried so hard and got so far, but in the end, it doesn't even matter." - Linkin Park

I think I'm gonna go to sleep now...I feel like life just sucks right now. I'm all cried out and in a state of shock.

[DeltAlum]

Newbie,

Dry your eyes, take a deep breath and smile.

Sorry you're so stressed. One way or the other, the decision will be made soon -- and you will be happy with it. Remember, it's not irreversible. According to admissions officers I talked with at both Northwestern and Indiana, 40 to 60% of students who start college end up changing their major, their college or their university (or all three) before graduation.

Being confused, scared and (unfortunately) sometimes sad is part of your job as a teenager. I've been one and raised three.

Do what will make you happy. Join the sorority that you feel most comfortable with (remember to consider that when looking at finances). Major in something you enjoy.

As for Rudey's advice -- add investment banking or whatever to the "professions" list if you want. I won't argue with it because I'm not in that profession. In some cases, though, this "top ten" stuff is pure recruiting blather. A fraternity brother of mine graduated from our nice mid-sized state supported school -- and then went to Harvard for his MBA. As somebody who has hired other people, including entry level positions, I stand by my comments above.

You're a great kid. You will succeed in life because of your attitude and wonderful outlook on life. Things will work out for you.

[carnation]

Oh gosh, newbie, hang in there. I know you're pulled so many different ways and I just feel for you. We all care.

[newbie]

I keep a diary on my comp, so I'm just gonna copy and paste to let you all know what happened today. Thanks for caring everybody...I truly appreciate it.

Dear Diary,

Today has been the worst day in my life. As I write this, tears are streaming down my cheeks, for the second time today. I thought that I had cried myself out the first time, but apparently not. The first bout of horrible news was when I checked the fin aid website for USC. I was floored to read that they expect us to pay about $16000 – for ONE SEMESTER. As I read the fin aid information, my mouth was agape and my heart was racing in panic. USC expects us to pay $32000 a YEAR? I was/am beyond shocked. In a state of dismay. I couldn't stop crying -- I had been accepted to my dream school -- where I love almost every aspect of it (academic, social, athletic, alum, school spirit), and the only thing that separates me from it is lack of money? I cannot understand that USC expects us to pay so much in one year. I will definitely call them on Monday...I'm hoping that they made a mistake. There's no way in hell that we could comfortably afford 32K a year. But this has just hurt so much. As Linkin Park accurately says, "I tried so hard and got so far, but in the end it doesn't even matter." I just feel so heartbroken right now. It's just, USC has been my dream school ever since the beginning. When seeing people in The City donning SC sweatshirts or cars which bear USC license plates, I always think to myself, "How I would LOVE to be a Trojan!!!" There's almost something magical to it. I thought that getting in was the biggest thing. Somehow, naive little me thought that if I were to be accepted, everything would work itself out, and I'd be a USC come Fall. I'm feeling completely dismayed because it's just so frustrating because for so long I've been in love with the Trojan Family aspect of USC, with their school spirit, with the pride that one undoubtedly feels sporting a USC sweatshirt -- stuff that you don't get at UCD.

And it's just, people say that everything happens for a reson. But it's like, I dont' know why I was accepted to USC in the first place then. Why couldn't I have had a rejection letter in the first place??? Then my heart wouldn't have gotten so involved! I don't understand why a higher Being had to decide to squash my heart by getting my hopes up so high that I'd be a USC Trojan, and then have the money aspect not work out. It hurts like you wouldn't believe. A few days ago, I saw 2 fellow seniors donning 'SC sweatshirts. I could honestly feel the pride that they have for their future school, and I was/am still filled with jealousy. They are so lucky to know that they can be a part of the Trojan Family, and are so blessed to know they can attend even with the high costs.

I know life's supposed to work out for the best, but why was I accepted then?? This hurts far more than any rejection could. Far more. I've never felt this much emotional pain before, with the exceptions of family deaths. Even my worst relationship breakup is nothing compared to this. At this point in my life, I can honestly say with fervor that life's completely brutal and unfair. Painful. Shocking. F-ed up.

To make everything worse, my father said to me tonight, "Well, had you worked harder sophomore year, you wouldn't be in this situation in the first place!" And then he "hmmped" and shook his head disapprovingly. Hearing that actually made my jaw drop and immediately, tears rushed down my cheeks. It just made me feel so angry and miserable. What he meant was, had I worked harder sophomore year for good grades, I would've had UCLA to choose from. He then wrote off my USC acceptance by saying, "You think it's a big deal to be accepted to USC? It's not Stanford for crying out loud." He then laughed evilly. At that point, I just about fell apart. Everybody -- with the exception of my parents -- is so proud of me getting into USC and are always in awe when I tell them I'm considering USC. They're like, "Wow. That's such an awesome school." They understand how hard I've worked for USC. It's so difficult to get into 'SC -- last year, 'SC's average SAT of their entering freshman class was 1320; their avg GPA was an incredible 3.93. Compare that to Davis' 1163 SAT score and 3.7 GPA. Sure, USC's not Stanford, but many people believe that USC and UCLA are almost equal in quality, since 'SC is better than UCLA in some aspects (connections for jobs and internships; personal attention; and the Trojan Family).

Then, my father delivered a final blow, saying, "Why should I be proud of you? Had you worked hard sophomore year, you wouldn't be in this situation!" That hurt like nothing else has ever hurt. So many amazingly smart classmates of mine are going to the CSUs because they weren't accepted at UCs. And it's not like UCD is a crappy UC; it's pretty good...nationally ranked. It just hurts so much because he doesn't understand how much he has to proud of. All the schools that i wanted to go to, I got in. I MET all my goals. I set some lofty, unreasonable goals -- and reached them. After a horrible sophomore year, I bounced back extraordinarily and promised myself that I would make a minimum 3.5 GPA for junior year -- a hard thing to accomplish at my HS. I finished with a 4.0. I worked my butt off to study, and sacrificed social events and friendships to earn the best grades possible. I questioned myself regularly if it was all worth it -- I was making so many personal sacrifices just to get into a good college. And I'm proud to say that it all paid off. I got into the school of my dreams, plus others. First semester senior year, I slaved over SAT classes, the personal statement, and sought to make my application perfect. I wanted to prove to them that I would be a good addition to their school. I wanted them to realize that my poor sophomore grades shouldn't define me. I spent countless sleepless nights making my personal statement as flawless as can be -- I wanted it to prove the qualities I possess. At times, I just wanted to give up. I was so convinced that my sophomore grades would seal my fate. But, I persisted and worked through it all. It's painful that my dad refuses to see all the lengths I took to succeed after that horrible sophomore year.

I could have thrown in the towel and succumbed to the power of drugs and endless partying. But I didn't, thank goodness. I wanted to get into USC so badly that I also worked my butt off for a 4.2 GPA 1st semester of senior year ('SC counts senior year grades). I chose all these choices -- and met them all. I've come so far -- and grown so much -- and am feeling so sad that my father doesn't see the lengths I've gone to meet my goals. I couldn't believe that he said he wasn't proud of me. He knows how much I've wanted USC (how could he not? I talked night and day about 'SC), and how hard I worked junior and senior years to get into the college of my dreams. He knows that I did the best I could. He knows that I set pretty unreasonable goals but strived to make them.

I feel horrible that he thinks the way he does -- I'm so tired of hearing UCLA-this, UCLA-that. UCLA's not for me...just because my parents like it, and I didn't get in, I'm a failure in their eyes?? Are they ever gonna be proud of me?? Will I ever be good enough for them? Or am I perpetually living in my sister's shadow?

Right now I'm feeling like life couldn't be any worse than right now, but today has definitely wiped any last shot of optimism left in me...

I definitely need to get out of this house first thing in the morning tomorrow...need to go for a swim, where for one hour I can just forget every single thing...

[carnation]

Oh newbie--this is so awful and you are not alone.

What you described is happening to so many seniors right now. UGa in particular is bad about doing this to people with below, say, a 1400 on the SAT. Get 'em excited! Get their admission fee! Then don't give 'em any money. The boy who was number 5 in my daughter's huge, competitive class 2 years ago (with a ton of quality activities) didn't get a cent and his dad works for UGa.

Seems like all the money goes to a tiny fraction of the very top and I'll be darned if I know what happens to it if they turn it down. It could be that even if you had done well your sophomore year, things wouldn't have been any different. We know people who were numbers 3 and 4 in their classes and they didn't even get decent offers from smaller state universities. Those places offered them loans and said, "Look! A full ride!"

It is so wrong for colleges to treat people like that.

[dzsaigirl]

Okay, this is the thing. I went to SMU, much like USC but in Texas. My family was also expected to pay a lot of money. I did have scholarships, but it was only like half tution, so the other part of tuition and room and board, etc. were not covered. I wanted to go there SO BADLY so I got loans and so did my parents. Is your desire to go to USC enough to take out loans? You can pay them back once you graduate. I think that loans are a good decision for someone who is completely enamoured with a certain "out of reach" school. However, if that is something that you do not think is worth the trouble, then UCDavis is a better choice.

I ended up transferring 'cause I changed my major to something that had a better department at a different school. UofH is much much much cheaper but that is NOT the reason why I transferred. Even so, it allowed me to have money free to do other things that I wanted. The money we were not spending was allocated to things like a car, sorority dues, etc. I am glad that I transferred for many reasons. I think that every situation is different and that you have to evaluate not only the emotions you have now, but also the things that might happen in the future like owing money. If it is worth it, go for it. If it isn't then there is nothing to fear about going to UCDavis instead.

Just my $.02

[DeltAlum]

Newbie,

I'm sorry you're feeling so bad. It is no consolation to know that (as Carnation mentioned) this IS happening to a lot of seniors right now. I don't know what to say about your situation with your dad -- I don't know either of you personally. I hope it works out. Sometimes we all say things and don't realize how hurtfull they are.

You did great in most of high school, but have been handed terrible news from your "dream school." I know that you will do the very best for yourself no matter where you attend college.

With advance appologies for once again using your personal forum to vent at something slightly off the subject, but still related:

Your financial aid situation at a pretty expensive school makes me absolutely furious. It drives me to comment on the scholarship situation in a lot of the "highly selective" colleges who give no merit based aid -- only "need based."

To make a point (and bore everyone who already knows this stuff), son Zak is a National Merit Finalist. He's in the top 1% of all high school students in the country according to the SAT folks. He has a 4.5 plus weighted GPA and a 3.9 plus unweighted GPA. He has a 1530 SAT and 34 ACT. He is VP of his student body and National Honor Society. Every single one of his academic courses were either Honors or AP classes. He has academic and leadership honors from his school, the school system and civic groups ranging over all four years of high school.

He's the kind of kid that all schools say they want.

Guess how much of a scholarship Northwestern (His first choice, Cost: $38K per year) offered him?

$0.00. Nothing. Nada.

They offered $29,000 per year in loans. Loans! Of course that means the other $9000 per year would be out of pocket -- or other family loans. His three other top choices ranged in aid from $0.00 to $12,000 per year -- the later being at a state supported university (out of our state) with somewhat lower costs. That would amount to about 50% of tuition, room and board at that school.

How the hell is a middle class family (even upper middle class in this economy) supposed to deal with that?

They say you can appeal those decisions. Bull. So they throw in a couple thousand dollars.

Then they send letters, have current students make phone calls and do e-mails talking about how much you will love those schools and what a wonderful education you'll get. And they express dissapointment when you tell them you've made a decision to go elsewhere. Bull again.

Thank goodness that A) There are schools like Oklahoma who are willing to help top students and, B) that he discovered that he really liked the school, campus and courses.

Zak, take the money and run. Get a degree from a very fine state suported school, study abroad with the money we've saved and go to a great graduate school.

Although the analogy isn't perfect, when a businessperson reaches the top echelons of his/her career, they are paid comensurate to what they have achieved. It should be the same (at least in part) with students. I say "in part" because I understand that there are legitimate arguments that some school systems are better than others and that some groups socioeconomic don't have the same advantages. But, that does not excuse penalizing top students -- which is what "no merit scholarship" policies do.

There has to be some ballance somewhere. Both groups are deserving. Total preference to one situation or the other does not serve society or the education system well.

Our situation has worked out well thanks to Oklahoma's "National Scholars" program -- pretty much a full academic ride for National Merit and National Hispanic Merit students. I just don't know how the majority of other families are going to deal with this -- short of paying back loans into retirement.

End of tirade.

I apologize again, Newbie. Hang in.

[AchtungBaby80]

Newbie,

I'm so sorry! You're having a rougher time of it than I did, but it sounds like you really want to go to USC. If that's what you really want, try to find alternate ways to pay for it than waiting for the school to give you money (which not many people have good chance of, at least from what I've seen). What about the state? Do they give out any sort of grants or student monies that you could apply for? What about community scholarships? If you join a sorority, they might have some sort of scholarship plan, too. (My sorority has scholarships that members can apply for to help pay for school.) I'm just trying to throw some options out there for you, but I don't really know a whole lot about it because I'm from the other side of the country!

Please, please try not to worry about your parents. That's what made me the most miserable in the first place (my dad wasn't thrilled about me going to the school I'm at), but you know what? I was frustrated the other day and mentioned something about transferring (I didn't mean it), and he got this really sad look and said, "But...I always hoped someone in our family would be able to graduate from UK." Not that it's a top school or anything, but it's the best in our state and the best we could hope to afford, so...but my point is, sometimes parents say things they really don't mean (or will rethink later). He's probably just as frustrated as you are because he knows how much you want USC and it's not going to be easy, and he probably hates seeing you so upset.

What I would do is, just try to calm down and call the school. Surely they could work out something, because your grades kick butt and I know they want students like you. Your sophomore year is NOT ruining your chances of getting scholarships, because more likely than not even if you had a 4.0 that year you still might be in the same situation. My school is not even close to being a top school in the nation, but they are extremely stingy and it is really hard to squeeze any sort of aid money from them whatsoever, so just think how much worse a better school is going to be. So please don't give up!

[amycat412]

Car-
Have you gotten your fin aid package yet? Because if what you're talking about is the USC EFC, THAT IS NEGOTIABLE.

EVERYTHING at USC's fin aid dept is negotiable. PLEASE contact me, I will do what I can to help.

When I was an entering freshman my dad and I drove to USC from Las Vegas and debated my package IN THE OFFICE with them and eventually got the kind of aid we needed to be able to afford USC comfortably.

I will go thru my files and try to see if the guy I dealt with a few years ago is still there, he was a GODSEND of information and help and eventually we DID get my package where I needed it to be.

As you know, I am looking to return to USC in the fall as well, and the FAFSA put my EFC at 16K, which is stinking ridiculous considering I am an independent student at this point with rent, car payments, etc--where do they expect me to get 16K? But, USC, while they may enter into their system the FAFSA and CSS EFCs, they DO take a closer look at the individual student's situations.

This may require your dad calling them or the two of you going down there, but if you appeal it, you almost always get a better package. I speak from experience, as you know.

USC guarantees to meet 100% of a family's estimated need when all documents are filed on time. Sounds like what you need to do is get your family's EFC lowered.

USC's programs are MERIT AND NEED based. However, with USC being such an academically competitive school, those Merit based scholarships are hard to come by. I had a partial merit scholarship when I entered USC which I lost when I changed majors--c'est la vie, the major change was necessary and the school compensated for the loss of $12K with larger grants.

Also there are MANY loan programs and they are well worth it for the USC experience.

Hang in there!
FIGHT ON!
Amy

[bruinaphi]

I had a similar experience to Amy's at the Law School at USC. My parents started out covering my law school tuition (we made a deal when I went to UCLA for undergrad that they would cover grad school) but then my mom's company went under and my dad lost a big client and I was starting my second year of law school. All the sudden I needed financial aid quickly! We had our own financial aid office in the law school so it is totally different but if you contact them they will work with you to make it possible for you to attend if that is your desire. They also have payment plans that make paying the family's share a lot easier. They might be worth checking into.

[shadokat]

Car--

Been in your shoes honey. Syracuse was my dream school. But the money just wasn't there. I had a 3.92 GPA and 1300 SAT scores. Syracuse gave me about $6,000 in scholarship money. My parents didn't pay for me to go to school, but unfortunately, at 17, I had to report their income, and thus, got nearly nothing. I wasn't happy about it at the time, but I figured that college was most important, and I gave up Syracuse for a PA State School where I knew I could afford to live comfortably with a scholarship and some grant and loan money. As dzsaigirl said, going to a cheaper school, while I sacrificed some prestige, really did help me do things I couldn't have dreamt of had I gone to SU (pledge a sorority, have a car, pay for health insurance!). Looking back now, I don't regret going to the state school. I still love SU, don't get me wrong, but sometimes we have to do with what cards we are dealt.

I hope you get your chance to go to USC Amy seems to have some great advice and insight. Keep your chin up sweetie!

Heather

[Peaches-n-Cream]

You are definitely not alone. I have been there also. I was accepted to a school that I really wanted and received $0 in financial aid. I was the oldest of three daughters of a stay at home mom who is also a widow. WTF was my family supposed to do? Luckily, I had been accepted to a state school that actually awarded me financial aid despite the fact that it was half of the price of the private school. I decided to get excited about this school and had a wonderful college experience. The private school said that if I maintained a 3.3 or 3.5 GPA (I think) I could get financial aid the next year. There was no guarantee that I would get that GPA, plus I still had to pay full tuition for the first year which was money that we didn't have. The whole thing sucked! It is very difficult for the average American family to pay college tuition so state schools are an excellent option which I exercised.

Newbie, I hope that USC will offer you more aid or give you suggestions as to what you can do. Maybe go to a state school and transfer to USC after a year or two. As for your father, don't take it too personally. Your father probably feels really bad that he can't give you what you want. My mother and I had very similar fights because she felt so bad about the situation. Good luck! I hope that it all works out for you.

[DeltAlum]

Oh boy, did Cream bring up some old memories...and an excellent point.

My parents were divorced, and I was raised by grandparents who were on a fixed income by the time I went to college.

Neither parent graduated from high school -- let alone college.

Probably my very worst and most hurtful memory of my youth is the discussion (read that knock down, drag out fight) about where I could go to school. My Dad said he wouldn't support me if I didn't go to Ohio State -- and my mom said she wouldn't if I did. It was understood by everyone that I would go to a state school -- the difference was that I could live at home in Columbus if I went to OSU and save the room and board.

It was not pretty.

In retrospect, I know that my dad was happy that I went to Ohio University -- but I ended up mostly supporting myself. I'm sure he just felt badly that the money was an issue and possibly was embarassed.

That kind of dynamic may be happening here -- as Cream so adroitly figured out.

As I said before, hang in.

[justamom]

I'm almost CERTAIN your Dad feels he let YOU down. Even though it's wrong, shifting blame happens in a LOT of families. I'm glad you're back to your "old self". Many have said this before and I'm going to say it again-YOU WILL MAKE A SUCCESS OF YOURSELF BECAUSE OF YOURSELF AND WHO YOU ARE! It's a slightly different path than you planned, but your destination will remain the same!