Will the Greek world ever desegregate?

[33girl]

Originally posted by 12dn94dst


there's the difference right there.

the only real difference between a collegiate chapter & an alumnae chapter for the nphc sororities is the undergraduates don't have a degree and the alumnae do. the set up is the same on both levels. all chapters on both levels are subject to the same set of rules, regulations & requirements and are expected to be in attendance at the same sets of meetings at the same times. requirements are not lessened because alumnae have husbands/families because there are undergraduates who have the same. there are alumnae & collegiates represented at all levels of leadership (local, regional & national). we look at the collegiate chapters as a training ground, if you will, for the alumnae chapters...you learn how delta, aka, zeta & sgrho operate so you can carry that knowledge over to your alumnae chapter. based on what i've read on gc regarding npc organizations, alumnae are more support of a collegiate chapter than a functioning unit of the organization just like the collegiate chapter. now, if that's not the case then y'all need to do a better job of portraying that so no one will be mistaken.

Kelli - this is the BEST explanation I've heard yet of this particular difference between NPC and NPHC. As far as being a support of a collegiate chapter, well it depends where you are. We have some alum chapters in the same towns where we have collegiate chapters, and when that is the case there is a lot more of the alums serving as advisors, helping with rush activities, etc. Now where I am (Pittsburgh) we do not have an ASA chapter here in the city, so our alum chapter more focuses on achieving our aims through philanthropic and sisterhood activities that we do on our own - not necessarily in connection with a collegiate chapter.

I think that the communication with email and the net will be changing a lot in the futute with how our alum chapters operate - geography need not be a hindrance any more.

Oh and as far as that girl asking if there would be Christian activities, if it is something that would make you hideously uncomfortable I think it is within your rights to ask - I would not want to be Jewish and end up pledging a sorority where all the rituals said that Jesus is the Messiah. But there are more tactful ways to ask about it. (i.e. "I am Jewish, is there anything about AGD that might conflict with my beliefs?")

[ENDROAD]

Originally posted by ENDROAD
Not to say that some past NPHC members may have not been a part of some hate group. But history and current events point out that white greek systems were very intergrated with Hate members.

As for the point of intergration. I think it is GREAT that their are members who chose to cross those unmarked color lines and go where their hearts take them.

UM Girl you must have missed my point when I said NPHC groups may have/had hate members. As for your pride for your founders that is fine for you but do you really think they considered you when they founded your sorority.

It has been my extensive experience that "other" orgs are collegiate only. I cannot count the numbers of times I have heard collegues, close friends and casual aquantainces refer to themselves as having been members of XYZ org. As for NPHC orgs I see women and men in their 60s walking around with nalia on. I would think that the majority lies in those who join NPHC orgs to be lifelong members even if they are not financial.

This is a debate that will not be solved here. I do not lessen anyones commitment to their org. If it is in your heart it is in your heart. My observations are merely general and GENERALLY speaking NPHC membership is perpetual!!!

[Optimist Prime]

we have non white members

[SAEguy]

then generally speaking THE GLO'S MEMBERSHIP IS ALSO PERPETUAL if you met someone who said they were it means when they got out of college they chose to stop being active

[SAEalumnus]

I don't know about the rest of y'all in thim thar WGLOs, but I sure don't remember any line in my initiation about once initiated, only initiated until graduation. If that were the case, what would be the point of alumnus status? The problem is, everyone likes to think that their GLO is sooo much better that everyone else's. Meanwhile ("almost") everyone does stupid things in public while wearing letters, hazes their pledges, and generally does everything in their power to make the rest of us look like the "Delta House" ala John Belushi. We all profess to be a part of a unified community, yet we also (at least some of us anyway) try to categorize ourselves above everyone else with claims of perpetual membership as compared to everyone else's collegiate-only membership, claims that we have such-and-so-many alumni chapters while everyone else only has random, scattered groups, and the most asinine of all claims, that some groups have a tighter, more defined sense of "brotherhood" than does everyone else.

Well after we've all finished blowing smoke up each others' arses about how friggin' cool we are and how lame everyone else is, can we please start acting according to our respective Rituals for ONCE! The truth is, we're all EXACTLY the same. ... *GASP* ... The difference is not made by what particular combination of letters you wear, the difference is made ONLY by how you are known to treat others, especially when you think no one is looking. If we're going to be judgemental, let's start with ourselves first. Try this as your unit of measure...

The True Gentleman

The True Gentleman is the man whose conduct proceeds from good will and an acute sense of propriety, and whose self-control is equal to all emergencies; who does not make the poor man conscious of his poverty, the obscure man of his obscurity, or any man of his inferiority or deformity; who is himself humbled if necessity compels him to humble another; who does not flatter wealth, cringe before power, or boast of his own possessions or achievements; who speaks with frankness but always with sincerity and sympathy; whose deed follows his word; who thinks of the rights and feelings of others, rather than his own; and who appears well in any company, a man with whom honor is sacred and virtue safe.

- John Walter Wayland

I would just like to first state that I'm playing devil's advocate alot here (probably should have said that earlier). Would I like to see a 50/50 integration or even 30/70 sure thatd be cool. But as I said it probably wont happen in my lifetime, but i think it still will someday. In some cases it may be good to stay in some way segregated to preserve traditons and yada yada. Examples keep mens clubs mens like Elk Lodges. Sometimes things just have to be that way.

In any case SAEactive, I completely agree with your post

Endroad, I completely understood your post, but we just trying to give a different view and twist on it. Didnt mean to come off as being pissed at your post if it sounded that way.
Do I think my founders considered minorties such as myself in it? That no one can asnwer or knows except for them. It was back in 1904. Did NPHC founders consider that whites may one day join their orgs.? That we cant answer either really. the answer to both is probably not. But im not looking for what my founders where consdiering then Im looking at what my org considers now and all its accomplishments and progress that it has made. Like I said that was the past and its nice to hear it and learn about and from it, but im not gonna live it. For all I know my founders could have been 11 in the closet lesbian women having orgies. JUST KIDDING about that AGD's. See I can joke about them cuz my sisters and I know how I truely feel about my org.

Its just my guess, but probably for every NPC?NIC person who says "Yeah, I use to be a/or in XYZ", there are probably 8 NPC/NIC active or dedicated alums walking around sporting letters saying " I belong to XYZ"

[Rudey]

33Girl, I remember maybe a couple months ago I was on this board and read something someone had written. I don't remember if it was you, but the writing was so simple yet so real and brilliant. It was something to the extent of not making a judgement unless you can walk a mile in someone's shoes. Whoever said this was hands down brilliant in my eyes. I would appreciate you looking over the last sentence in the quote below. Can you really make a remark like that? Have you had the same experiences as this girl? I personally refrain from making any rash statements and I'm sure you could understand how someone could be offended by that. Also the comment about being cut. Please remember she goes to a school where Jews are in the minority and she thought that she would instantly feel wanted at a Jewish house. There is nothing wrong about this. Now personally, I don't know you but you sound like a very intelligent woman from your posts (and to earn extra brownie points, I love that crazy beer from latrobe) so please see how your words can be viewed as offensive. Thank you.

Originally posted by 33girl


ENDROAD - that is exactly what I wanted to say. Being able to do what you want to do is more important than maintaining some percentage.

As far as that UGA article, if I read one more thing saying separate rushes (not that NPHC groups even CALL it rush, for cryin out loud) are a sign of discrimination, I'll scream. I can't wait to hear that APO is discriminating because we hold rush and induction at a different time. That girl who was an AGD sounds like she was just as guilty of discrimination as the ones she accused - she joined because she expected a more diverse and "enlightened" group and when they didn't live up to it she got upset (and I couldn't believe that comment about she couldn't get cut from the "Jewish" sorority because she was Jewish). As far as her being "as much of a minority" as a black woman...sorry honey, but I really don't think so.

Carnation, please tell me that the only thing you were bothered about in this article wasn't her "making a big deal" about her religion. The article had a few sentences in it about her religion, but the mass concentrated on something else. And I find your statement to be slightly ignorant. I do not mean to offend you. I will talk to you and explain to you certain things that you have not yet understood. Being part of a majority is a great thing...but please don't discount the feelings of someone who isn't. You have no idea how she feels because of her religion. I know that if I was in an environment where so few where like me and all my friends woke up to go to church on sundays and eat at Krispy Cream (I use this because my friend feels compelled to tell me about his donut experiences in the south), I would feel alone. If I was going to college and once again was in an environment where Christianity was dominant, I would want to know before I joined an organization that could possibly feel "threatening" to me. And let me tell you, in Jewish fraternities and sororities there are large groups of non-Jews because they are nondiscriminatory. The non jews do ask about Jewish religion. They do ask about what joining these chapters entails. And they can rightfully ask this since they are joining an organization that requires quite a bit of dedication. I do not understand you so maybe you can help me understand you. If you are just feeling bothered by the language used, then remember one thing: Those are not her real words. This is an article that is describing an event and has been written for the reader and certain truths may have been lost in the process. If it was her wanting to know about religion, then please understand that a historically Jewish sorority will always be open to any non-Jewish rush asking to what extent Judaism is a part of the chapter. And I will end this by saying I appreciate very much your comments on this board Carnation.

Originally posted by Carnation

I read the article about Alison Davis last night and one thing that bothered me was that she made a big deal about asking the Alpha Gam sisters if she was going to be exposed to Christian practices there. Huh? I wouldn't go to the rush of a predominantly or historically Jewish sorority and say, "Y'all aren't gonna be displaying any Stars of David around here, are you?"

[Honeykiss1974]

I think Allison did the right thing, even though it was not the POPULAR thing to do. It takes a lot and courage to stand up by yourself and speak out against something that you know is not right
I also believe that Alison was a 100% correct to inquire about the sorority's Christian rituals since she was Jewish. Even thought I myself would not join an org. that either was not founded on Christian principles or beliefs (Since I am a Christian ). But anywho......

Like I said earlier, I just don't think that GLO's will ever be 50/50 or even 60/40 because people will tend to go/join where they feel the most "comfortable". And frankly if the majority of our workplaces are segregated, our towns are segregated, our neighborhoods are segregated, our schools are segregated, our CHURCHS are segregated, what would make joining GLO's the exception ?

[ChaosDST]

I agree with my Sisterfriend. However, I think the term "segregation" always has a negative connotation. In my eyes, there's nothing wrong with organizations NOT being a mixture of races and ethnicities. As long as other races and ethnicities are not banned (formally or informally) from membership. I'm speaking mainly about the NPHC and the Historically Black Greek Letter Organizations within it.

Originally posted by prettypoodle6
I dont think the greek systems will become desegregated.

sigmachicard said it best - its about a level of comfort.

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by UMgirl
Did NPHC founders consider that whites may one day join their orgs.? That we cant answer either really. the answer to both is probably not.

The initial Founding of our organizations was primarily due to the fact that African Americans were not allowed to join mainstream fraternities and sororities. In addition, our Founders wanted to establish and implement ideals that pertained more to the Black community. I think that the Founders for some of the NPHC organizations considered a relatively small percentage of whites joining the organizations. This is partially because some of the NPHC organizations were not Founded at Historically Black Colleges and Universities.

[carnation]

Honeykiss, my problem with Alison Davis' inquiry about the display of Christianity in the sorority was that if she had that big a problem with it in the first place, she shouldn't have been looking into a historically Christian group. Last summer, some of my daughters were counselors at a Christian camp. There was a non-Christian counselor who made trouble every time someone planned to give a testimony, sing a hymn, you name it. What the heck was this kid doing at a Christian camp in the first place?

[Alias23]

"Apparently, Alias, we're going to have to just agree to disagree on this issue. I think that I made my points quite succinctly, and I did answer your questions to the best of my ability." -- dzrose93

You haven't answered anything. I've asked you one specific question twice and you refuse to answer it, probably because you don't know how to respond. Whites and minorities will never improve relations if White folks choose to dance around the issue or drop the subject every time discussions get difficult. I'll pose the same question again: Short of evidence that someone directly said they weren't letting her in because she was Black (which rarely happens in cases of discrimination), what SPECIFICALLY would it take to prove to you that she was turned away because of her race? Keep in mind what I said earlier about cases of discrimination and how they are judged.

There are several statements that I have made and issues that I have addressed that you have not commented on, probably because you don't know how to deal with them, but if you could just answer that one question I would really appreciate it. I would love to hear your response.

"I'm sorry if you feel that I am "out of touch." As a person who has lived in the South nearly all of her life, I am quite familar with cases of racism. Some are totally valid and some aren't." --dzrose

Living in the South doesn't make you an authority on what is and isn't racism. You come off as someone who has trouble understanding what it is. I am sure you are familiar with SOME forms of racism, but you seem to be unfamiliar with institutional racism or any racism that's not blatantly obvious. If you answer my previous question I will have a better understanding of what you feel makes a case of alleged racism valid or invalid.

"However, quite frankly, I feel that some people are entirely too eager to cry "discrimination" when they don't get their way about something." -- dzrose

We can't ignore potential cases of racism because some people cry wolf. They have to at least be looked into and then they can be judged. Some women cry rape when they know it didn't happen, but that doesn't mean we can assume other cases are untrue. We have to investigate and then reach our conclusions.

"You'll also find that some minority girls, aside from Twilley, were not offered bids during Rush. Should they be crying racism also?"

Maybe so. Sometimes other victims come forward after one person breaks the ice -- just like in cases of rape.

"It appears that we have differing opinions, Alias. But I would appreciate it if you would not assume that I am "out of touch" just because my viewpoint is different. I assure you that I am an intelligent woman who has a very firm grasp on the real world." -- dzrose

You may very well be intelligent and understand the real world -- YOUR real world. I'm not criticizing your overall intelligence, just your understanding of discrimination. I didn't assume you were out of touch because your opinion was different, but because you have been unable to back it up and have dodged the questions I have asked you. I am only trying to understand your point of view, but it seems you are scared to address the difficult points because all you do is repeat the same things over and over again. Please help me understand your way of thinking by answering my question, then maybe both of us can learn and make progress.

[prettypoodle6]

i think a lot of us (nphc'ers) have been under the impression that NIC and NPC orgs were collegiate organizations only - cause that's what we've been told/seen by actions.

I also was told that upon graduations members had to return their pins and almost everyone that i know that has graduated dont associate with there organization (my coworker who joined a fraternity gets on me all the time - calling me obsessive - cause i'm very involved with my sorority. he even asked me when i was going to grow out of it!)

just want to thanks folks for clearing up the fact the NIC and NPC organizations were for life....

[SoTrue1920]

Originally posted by UMgirl
Did NPHC founders consider that whites may one day join their orgs.? That we cant answer either really. the answer to both is probably not.

I can't speak for other NPHC organizations, but Zeta Phi Beta has had a non-discrimination policy in place since her inception, which means that yes - they probably knew that one day that people of other ethnicities may someday seek membership.

Originally posted by ChaosDST



The initial Founding of our organizations was primarily due to the fact that African Americans were not allowed to join mainstream fraternities and sororities. In addition, our Founders wanted to establish and implement ideals that pertained more to the Black community. I think that the Founders for some of the NPHC organizations considered a relatively small percentage of whites joining the organizations. This is partially because some of the NPHC organizations were not Founded at Historically Black Colleges and Universities.

I think that it is really cool that some of the NPHC's founders thought that some whites may want to join thier orgs. My point was merely to Endroads when she asked did I think my founders considered me, was maybe they did maybe they didnt. Just like some NPHC orgs considered whites, out of the 66 NIC and 26 NPC orgs,maybe blacks were considered to in many of them, but none at the point wanted to join or even thought it was possible. No place in our rituals or whatever does it say that you had to be such and such, just open to meeting women internationaly to share in a sisterhood.