The Help

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

But the problem is, just because it was a "big part of people's lives" doesn't mean it was a big part of someone else's life experiences; even it was such a huge event in other's experiences.

Truly not being sarcastic, but people are raised by other people who may not emphasize certain aspects of history or other experiences. I honestly don't remember much being taught about the Civil Rights movement or the effects of Jim Crow laws when I was growing up. I think I went to the only high school in the U.S. that never read "To Kill a Mockingbird" - which, like it or not, gets some people interested in learning about Jim Crow laws and leads to learning about the Civil Rights movement.

Most people don't learn about:

- the discrimination that the Irish faced when they first moved to the U.S.

- the discrimination and anti-Chinese laws that existed in the late 1800s/early 1900s

- the Japanese experience in internment camps in WWII

-the early pre-Stonewall protests in the LGBT community to change discriminatory laws aimed at them

-how the U.S. government led a coup that ousted the Hawaiian monarchy and annexed what was a foreign country and the discrimination that the people of that country had to face in their own land afterwards

Before the argument starts: yes, I know that traditionally the African-American experience in the U.S. has been more discriminatory and had more laws against them (with the exception of the anti-Chinese laws).

My point (and I do have one) is that you seem to be taking offense with someone who is saying that they never really thought about something before and now they are. It wasn't in their experience in the past. Shouldn't it be a good thing that they are now thinking and want to learn? Look over my list. How much do you know about those experiences? And, yes, the people who had those experiences feel just as strongly about them that other people do about theirs.

It's not about individual life experiences; it's about being interested in the human experience, in the American experience specifically. I'm sure that the events you've listed are known to the people of those countries or they are at least interested in knowing more about them. Not learning about or discussing your country's history just because you didn't personally have an experience is crazy to me.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

I'm sure that the events you've listed are known to the people of those countries or they are at least interested in knowing more about them. Not learning about or discussing your country's history just because you didn't personally have an experience is crazy to me.

Those events happened in the United States of America.

I learned about those events without the assistance of my K-12 public school education.

When it comes to pieces of history that have received at least a moderate amount of attention (books, research, media depictions, conversations), I always wonder "where have you been/why don't you know" when I talk to Americans who have lived in America for a substantial amount of time and are relatively unaware. There is plenty of American (and world) history that has always received minimal coverage, so you have to work harder to learn about it. The history of racial and ethnic minorities (and various European ethnicities), particularly Black/African-Americans, in this country has received way more than minimal coverage.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

It's not about individual life experiences; it's about being interested in the human experience, in the American experience specifically. I'm sure that the events you've listed are known to the people of those countries or they are at least interested in knowing more about them. Not learning about or discussing your country's history just because you didn't personally have an experience is crazy to me.

I think I may have to side with Lane on this.

I spent a large chunk of my life in very diverse cities and neighborhoods, but when I moved to one predominantly-white community, things that I thought were common sense (being an African American) weren't. It's not that they were actively ignoring some things -- they had no idea said things existed.

For me personally -- I have always been exposed to Hispanics/Latinos in my life, but had no idea of a lot of the struggles that the group has had to endure. As an A-A, it's never been on my radar. It wasn't until I was consistently around Hispanics/Latinos that I took a harder look at some of the issues facing the group. I wasn't "not interested" in the culture -- I just wasn't aware.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like Lane is talking about this on the individual level while DrPhil is speaking about it from an aggregate level.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Those events happened in the United States of America.

I learned about those events without the assistance of my K-12 public school education.

Oops...I admit that I didn't really read, just saw Chinese and Japanese. I do remember reading about the Irish. I'll have to look into the others, I love to do research.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I think I may have to side with Lane on this.

I spent a large chunk of my life in very diverse cities and neighborhoods, but when I moved to one predominantly-white community, things that I thought were common sense (being an African American) weren't. It's not that they were actively ignoring some things -- they had no idea said things existed.

For me personally -- I have always been exposed to Hispanics/Latinos in my life, but had no idea of a lot of the struggles that the group has had to endure. As an A-A, it's never been on my radar. It wasn't until I was consistently around Hispanics/Latinos that I took a harder look at some of the issues facing the group. I wasn't "not interested" in the culture -- I just wasn't aware.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like Lane is talking about this on the individual level while DrPhil is speaking about it from an aggregate level.

I too have lived among Latinos and in diverse areas that weren't on my radar before so I understand that but when it comes to black and white and the racial dynamics between these 2 groups in America, the history is much longer and should be on everyone's radar.

[LXA SE285]

When I was in college in the '80s, an AA friend of mine had a roommate who had never even met a black person before she graduated from high school (her hometown, in northeast Alabama, was something like 98% white).

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I think I may have to side with Lane on this.

I didn't know there were sides.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I spent a large chunk of my life in very diverse cities and neighborhoods, but when I moved to one predominantly-white community, things that I thought were common sense (being an African American) weren't. It's not that they were actively ignoring some things -- they had no idea said things existed.

I consider that sad and pathetic. This isn't about common sense.

LOL. I find this discussion funny because it isn't as though we don't know WHY this exists. We already know there is a great deal of social class and race segregation in this country that results in BOTH actively ignoring (those whites didn't accidentally end up in predominantly white communities---message) and unintentional ignorance. WHY doesn't make it less sad and pathetic.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

For me personally -- I have always been exposed to Hispanics/Latinos in my life, but had no idea of a lot of the struggles that the group has had to endure. As an A-A, it's never been on my radar. It wasn't until I was consistently around Hispanics/Latinos that I took a harder look at some of the issues facing the group. I wasn't "not interested" in the culture -- I just wasn't aware.

I am glad that you learned something new. Is there any particular reason why you were unaware that Blacks aren't the only group in America that has had struggles?

Rhoyaltempest and I aren't talking about the struggles and experiences of Black folks that are mostly confined to the Black community. The experiences of Blacks in this country, dating back to slavery, has become such a big part of American history and even present race relations between Blacks and whites. American and international discussions of race and ethnicity, and specifically pertaining to Blacks, have become relegated to discussions of slavery, Jim Crow, and Civil Rights Era, as though those define what being Black symbolizes. There are people all around the world who have at least heard about what this "powerful capitalist nation" has done to different groups of people. Hell, I have had people from other countries ask me how Blacks could be proud to be an American.

It's one thing to not be too familiar, it's another thing to be totally unaware. It's great to learn new things but whenever I learn things that I think I should have already learned, I think critically about what my lack of knowledge means.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by LXA SE285

When I was in college in the '80s, an AA friend of mine had a roommate who had never even met a black person before she graduated from high school (her hometown, in northeast Alabama, was something like 98% white).

That is very common.

Since elementary school, I have become accustomed to being THE BLACK PERSON for the whites who have seen but never had a real interaction with a Black person.

It has always been fun being nice enough to get them to invite me to their house to meet their family for dinner. Then I ask them where the fried chicken is, steal their televisions and good jewelry, and my Cousin JuneBug and I go to the pawn shop. I'm joking.

The isolated and segregated whites tend to at least hear some mention of Martin Luther King, Jr, even if there's a negative connotation. They may have even heard their families talking about (insert racial slurs and negative comments). Point being, these people generally aren't blank slates. What they do with those slates, especially once they have the power to learn on their own, is up to them.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

It has always been fun being nice enough to get them to invite me to their house to meet their family for dinner. Then I ask them where the fried chicken is, steal their televisions and good jewelry, and my Cousin JuneBug and I go to the pawn shop. I'm joking.

So what you're saying is that it would be rude for me to invite you over to dinner and neglect to invite your Cousin JuneBug?

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I didn't know there were sides.

Whoops. Should have said "I agree with Lane" -- my bad

I consider that sad and pathetic. This isn't about common sense.

LOL. I find this discussion funny because it isn't as though we don't know WHY this exists. We already know there is a great deal of social class and race segregation in this country that results in BOTH actively ignoring (those whites didn't accidentally end up in predominantly white communities---message) and unintentional ignorance. WHY doesn't make it less sad and pathetic.

Was I correct in assuming that you were speaking at the aggregate level?

I ask because I think that the fact that A-A history lessons (for example) stop at slavery, MLK, and Rosa Parks IS pathetic. However, I don't think that Johnny Smith from Barrow, Alaska being unaware of Jim Crow laws (but reading up on them because of seeing XYZ movie) is pathetic. So maybe we're somewhat on the same page, but talking about different things?

I am glad that you learned something new. Is there any particular reason why you were unaware that Blacks aren't the only group in America that has had struggles?

Of course, I knew there were struggles, but didn't recognize* the full extent until I was surrounded by members of that group. Without a frame of reference, it's not that far off to assume that some things would not be top of mind.

Instead of using A-A and Hisp/Latino, what if I had used Turkish? Or Bolivian? Or Czech? I'm sure these groups have had struggles in America, but I would hate to think that I'm "pathetic" because I am not fully aware of what they've had to go through.

*This was pre-college. Since then, I've made efforts to be well informed in multiple areas, whether I'm completely immersed in them or not.

Rhoyaltempest and I aren't talking about the struggles and experiences of Black folks that are mostly confined to the Black community. The experiences of Blacks in this country, dating back to slavery, has become such a big part of American history and even present race relations between Blacks and whites. American and international discussions of race and ethnicity, and specifically pertaining to Blacks, have become relegated to discussions of slavery, Jim Crow, and Civil Rights Era, as though those define what being Black symbolizes. There are people all around the world who have at least heard about what this "powerful capitalist nation" has done to different groups of people. Hell, I have had people from other countries ask me how Blacks could be proud to be an American.

It's one thing to not be too familiar, it's another thing to be totally unaware. It's great to learn new things but whenever I learn things that I think I should have already learned, I think critically about why that is the case.

I think this goes back to my middle reply. There are obviously some overarching issues, but I would place that on "society," if you will, rather than on the individual who is unaware because of gaps in education.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by agzg

So what you're saying is that it would be rude for me to invite you over to dinner and neglect to invite your Cousin JuneBug?

Cousin JuneBug can never be invited. That would ruin the surprise.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I think this goes back to my middle reply. There are obviously some overarching issues, but I would place that on "society," if you will, rather than on the individual who is unaware because of gaps in education.

No, (the all-encompassing yet vague) society and education (schools?) can't foot the total bill unless you acknowledge that these include individuals and institutions. In that case, there's enough sad and pathetic to go around that it can be shared.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Cousin JuneBug can never be invited. That would ruin the surprise.

Oh.

Still though, should I see the Help?

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

No, (the all-encompassing yet vague) society and school systems can't foot the bill for everything. But, if people insist, there's enough sad and pathetic to go around that it can be shared.

Where does "sad and pathetic" end, though? I considered myself to be pretty well-read regarding most "struggles" experienced, because I read like a demon and had a family that regularly discussed current and historical events, from slavery and Civil Rights to the Holocaust and the Cambodian Genocide.

It wasn't until I got to college, when I learned (from friends of other cultures) about things like the Turkish atrocities against the Armenians. Does my lack of knowledge about the Armenian Genocide make me "sad and pathetic?"

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Does my lack of knowledge about the Armenian Genocide make me "sad and pathetic?"

If you want it to.

Did you grow up in, or have substantial interactions with, an environment where the Armenian genocide is a relatively hot topic?

My original post states "it" is pathetic. I did not call the actual people pathetic. However, the actual people can also be pathetic if they should or could have been more aware based on details that perhaps only the person knows. That goes back to critically thinking about your lack of knowledge and not simply saying "(insert institution) didn't teach me this." I am more understanding of an American teenager who doesn't know (I would say their family and school suck and give the teen some things to read and discuss) than I am of an American adult who doesn't know.

[Low C Sharp]

things that I thought were common sense (being an African American) weren't.

Oh, they're still common sense, even among white people. I don't move knowledge out of the realm of common sense just because a lot of people lack it in a given community. Common sense ain't common.