University of Alabama Breaks Color Barrier...

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by SH80er
I think what ChaosDST was trying to say that there are blacks and other minorities that join "WGLOs" because they relate to white people better than their "own culture", perhaps because they were not raised around "their own". Like me.

THEN...

They're are blacks and other minorities who PURPOSELY choose to be with GLOs outside their race, regardless if they relate to white people better or not, just for the sake of being in a "WGLO". THESE PEOPLE ARE CALLED "SELLOUTS".

People have varying reasons for doing the things they do. Therefore, we cannot make generalizations. However, we can TRY to understand. I cannot speak on how you were raised, but I'm sure you chose what you chose based on personal reasons...I wouldn't say that YOU are sellout.

[SigmaChiCard]

love you ivy

elitist: disagrees w/ me!
also: close minded and places themselves above others, that only their viewpoints matter, all others are void and null!

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by dzrose93


Okay, let me make sure that I'm understanding you correctly. A person who doesn't know how to interact within his/her own culture and purposely chooses things outside of that culture is a sell-out.

So, what you're saying is that you would rather have these "sell-outs" join a group that a) they don't feel comfortable in, b)among people whose culture they aren't familar with, and c) learn to fit in with that particular culture just because of the color of their skin?

You would prefer that a person join a historically-black organization for the sole purpose of learning "black" culture that he may never before have been immersed in INSTEAD of having him join a non-black organization that he feels at home in and in which there are members who share his interests?

I'm sorry, but I just don't understand the logic. It sounds like you'd prefer a separatist way of life in which each race sticks to its own "culture". However, you also rail against the fact that it took so long for a black man to be admitted to a historically-white fraternity. It seems to me like you want to have your cake and eat it too.

Honestly, Chaos, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you... I just want you to explain to me how you can argue both sides of an issue that way. Please help me to understand the message you're trying to get across, because I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only GCer confused by these mixed signals right now.

I understand your confusion. Question, why does someone HAVE to join a sorority or a fraternity? Aren't we supposed to be COMPLETE individuals BEFORE we join these organizations. We have nothing to offer these organizations if we are not aware of ourselves. So, in that regard, I would say those who do not know themselves, should seek that knowledge BEFORE membership in ANY fraternity or sorority. This goes for Black people in a BGLO, this goes for non-minorities in GLOs, and it goes for Blacks and other minorities in GLOs.

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by AlphaChiGirl
Yes, it can be hard for African-Americans, Latinos, and Asian Americans to join because of family and/or peer criticism. BUT, I do not feel that is the reason for such low numbers in certain regions of the country. Let's not beat around the bush here. Do you think that many blacks are going to rush at Auburn next year, after what happened? Do you think scores of African-American women are going to rush at UGa?

Most of the people are TOO OLD to be this NAIVE.

No, AlphaChiGirl, I do NOT think that many blacks are going to rush at Auburn next year, and I highly doubt that scores of African-American women are going to rush at UGA. I've only seen 1 AA girl go through Rush since I've been assisting the DZ chapter at UGA, and she went through in 2000. There were no African-American women who went through formal rush this year.

However, let's not single out the South here. I ALSO don't think that you're going to find "scores" of African-Americans rushing anywhere else in this country. And I think anyone who honestly thinks they will is NAIVE.

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by SigmaChiCard
love you ivy

elitist: disagrees w/ me!
also: close minded and places themselves above others, that only their viewpoints matter, all others are void and null!

Well other opinions are null and void if they're not based on anything. An opinion is like an a**hole...everyone has one. But, when people want to voice their opinion on something I have said...they need to understand what I'm trying to say FIRST. If they apparently do not, I will request that they go back, re-read, and re-think. Only then, can their opinions be taken out of the realm of null and voiddem (okay, I made that word up).
For the record, I'm just having a discussion here. I'm by no means insulted by SigmaChiCard's comments or anyone else's.

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by dzrose93


No, AlphaChiGirl, I do NOT think that many blacks are going to rush at Auburn next year, and I highly doubt that scores of African-American women are going to rush at UGA. I've only seen 1 AA girl go through Rush since I've been assisting the DZ chapter at UGA, and she went through in 2000. There were no African-American women who went through formal rush this year.

However, let's not single out the South here. I ALSO don't think that you're going to find "scores" of African-Americans rushing anywhere else in this country. And I think anyone who honestly thinks they will is NAIVE.

Agreed. This is not just a Southern thing. I will admit that these most recent events are definitely making the South look terrible. Unfortunately, these are the incidents that stick in people's minds (people forget the good and remember the bad). As some have said before, such incidents have happened at other schools--, but they just haven't been reported (yet).

[lovelyivy84]

SigmaChiCard:

Whatever.

I am not getting involved in this convo. I just had to make the observation. Once again, you have not presented the person you are arguing with with anything but your personal opinion. She disagrees, and as you have provided no facts, has no impetus to change her mind. Her choosing to not agree with you in no way marks her with your ridiculous definition of elitist.



ChaosDST:

Isn't Sh80 the one who left those INTERESTING messages on AKA and DST boulevard not long ago? THe ones that got deleted because of how truly offensive they were? Maybe it's my long memory that is coloring my perception here, but I would hold up on saying what she is or is not....

[SH80er]

Originally posted by lovelyivy84


Isn't Sh80 the one who left those INTERESTING messages on AKA and DST boulevard not long ago? THe ones that got deleted because of how truly offensive they were? Maybe it's my long memory that is coloring my perception here, but I would hold up on saying what she is or is not....

Huh? What does that has to do with this thread?


And, they weren't deleted, the last time I check they were still there.

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by lovelyivy84
SigmaChiCard:

Whatever.

I am not getting involved in this convo. I just had to make the observation. Once again, you have not presented the person you are arguing with with anything but your personal opinion. She disagrees, and as you have provided no facts, has no impetus to change her mind. Her choosing to not agree with you in no way marks her with your ridiculous definition of elitist.



ChaosDST:

Isn't Sh80 the one who left those INTERESTING messages on AKA and DST boulevard not long ago? THe ones that got deleted because of how truly offensive they were? Maybe it's my long memory that is coloring my perception here, but I would hold up on saying what she is or is not....

Lovelyivy84, this thread goes great with one of the threads from the Zeta board...if you haven't checked it out, please do. You'll know which one I'm referring to once you get there ("the air around GC").
Now, I didn't come to this thread to create confusion. I just KNOW that we are so used to folks agreeing on these boards. When someone finally doesn't agree (which is unpleasant and threatens the moral fiber of GC (sarcasm)) people are quick to JUMP on it. Well, I have no problem with being JUMPED on (haha), but please do so in a manner that's more informative and based on something. In this back-and-forth I believe that I have learned quite a bit about other sides of the discussion. I appreciate dzrose and a couple of others for really raising some key questions and issues.
With that said, I don't want the overrall positive nature of the thread to be lost in my dissention. Desegregation of fraternities and sororities CAN be a good thing. Oooops, there I go, again....

[SigmaChiCard]

Lovely

Wow, you've finally caught on. I've not presented her with anything so conclusive to try to change her mind. You are Brilliant! But what I have done is used a little socratic tactics to try to get her to either rethink the way she states her opinion, or hopefully, reconsider the way she feels and either reaffirm it, or make a new conclusion. My only real post here is the one where I asked a few questions. The other was in response to something that she (I assume) deleted that seemed rude, and coming back awfully harsh IMO at DZRose, implying stupidity. I don't try to convince anyone of anything, I ask questions, that's all. So, you're 9,000% correct in one regard, and 0% in another regard, I've presented zero facts to prove shit, respectively, I've presented zero opinions to prove or disprove anything, or back up anything. I've got opinions, but I've kept them to myself.

Brilliant
Brilliant



Cory

[lovelyivy84]

If that was supposed to be the socratic method of teaching then you REALLY need to go back to Philosophy 101. Clearly it ain't workin. I haven't seen anyone who disagrees with you change their opinion yet. All you've made sure of is that they're pretty sure they're rightm and they think you don't read very well (how many times does Chaos have to say "go back and re-read what I wrote." I don't think she's restating anything)


ChaosDST:

Girrrrl, you know I feel you about the "air". That whoooole isht was a trip! I got some ill PM's from assorted folk who were...interested in the situation.


Sh80:

No, you are wrong. A number of the worst offenders were deleted by the moderators.

Originally posted by SigmaChiCard
Lovely

Wow, you've finally caught on. I've not presented her with anything so conclusive to try to change her mind. You are Brilliant! But what I have done is used a little socratic tactics to try to get her to either rethink the way she states her opinion, or hopefully, reconsider the way she feels and either reaffirm it, or make a new conclusion. My only real post here is the one where I asked a few questions. The other was in response to something that she (I assume) deleted that seemed rude, and coming back awfully harsh IMO at DZRose, implying stupidity. I don't try to convince anyone of anything, I ask questions, that's all. So, you're 9,000% correct in one regard, and 0% in another regard, I've presented zero facts to prove shit, respectively, I've presented zero opinions to prove or disprove anything, or back up anything. I've got opinions, but I've kept them to myself.

Brilliant
Brilliant



Cory

[SoTrue1920]

Is a non-black person who joins an NPHC organization a "sell-out"?

I'm not being facetious.

See, I've been called a sell-out my entire life. I dared to have friends of all races in high school. When some of those friends and I ended up at the same college, I went through NPC rush as a freshman, thinking it would be cool to be in the same org. as one of my closest friends (who later became a member of Zeta Tau Alpha). Of course, that was not to be, because at the time, none of the NPC sororities at my alma mater had accepted any African American members.

I like rock music better than hip-hop, always have, and probably always will. When I went to college, I decided to become involved with the student-run radio station. I'd listened to it growing up, so it was a dream job for me. When I rose up through the ranks into station management, the African American students who worked at other student organizations called me "sell out" and "oreo cookie" simply because I dared to do something that they hadn't tried or hadn't been able to do in their own attempts. When I became the general manager of the station, these same fools who called me "sell out" and "oreo cookie" came to me looking for jobs. If I'd given my detractors position at the station, would that have made me less of a sell-out? What about the fact that when I was in a position to hire volunteers, I hired more non-white students than anyone had in the history of that radio station?

When members of Pi Kappa Alpha scrawled "n*ggers enter" on a garbage can and put it outside the Kappa Sigma suite to protest Kappa Sig's acceptance of a black pledge, does the fact that I helped organize a student protest against the PiKes make me less of a sell-out? What about the end result of the demonstration -- the university was shut down for three days, and gained an African American Studies department (one of our many demands)? Am I more black now?

I think that term "sell-out" is quite possibly a defensive mechanism used by some folks to explain why it's easier for some African Americans to move through racially mixed circles than it is for themselves. Even if that's not true in your case, ChaosDST, I can't understand why in this day and age we are so hung up on there being one true, authentic way to express Blackness in our society. There are as many different ways to be black as there are Black folks on the planet. No one's cornered the market on it, and essentialist actions like calling someone a "sell-out" only helps to perpetuate the continued intra-racial distrust, misunderstanding, and dysfunction in our communities.

Just my $19.20.

[SH80er]

Originally posted by ChaosDST



Lovelyivy84, this thread goes great with one of the threads from the Zeta board...if you haven't checked it out, please do. You'll know which one I'm referring to once you get there ("the air around GC").
Now, I didn't come to this thread to create confusion. I just KNOW that we are so used to folks agreeing on these boards. When someone finally doesn't agree (which is unpleasant and threatens the moral fiber of GC (sarcasm)) people are quick to JUMP on it. Well, I have no problem with being JUMPED on (haha), but please do so in a manner that's more informative and based on something. In this back-and-forth I believe that I have learned quite a bit about other sides of the discussion.

It's a conspiracy!

[carnation]

ChaosDST--

As a matter of fact, something similar to the Auburn incident has been reported this week up north. The ATO chapter at the U. of Wisconsin-Whitewater is in trouble because in a public skit, a white member dressed up as Michael Jordan, I believe it was.

[G8Ralphaxi]

It seems to me that the difficulty with this issue is two-fold...

First, I think that we can agree that it's best to judge people on their individual merits rather than their appearance (i.e. race, gender, weight, attractiveness, etc.). That is the ideal that we hope to achieve - regarding racial issues, to see the world in a color blind manner. We disapprove of the stories of the GLO's at some of these colleges rejecting rushees because they are minorities. We want them to look beyond skin color and accept or reject a potential new member based on their personality, academics, leadership, etc.

Second, we also realize that there are generally characteristics that are inherent with being a member of a certain racial/ethnic group, and that this is something to learn about and celebrate. I'm not talking about stereotypes here - i.e. "All black people listen to rap music and dance well." This is the salsa dance of someone from Cuba, great African-American writers like Zora Neale Hurston, or the awesome German food that my aunts cook for every family dinner.

The difficulty comes in reconciling wanting to be "color-blind" but still recognize these cultural characteristics.