Why in the world should a lady be expected to join a house she didn't want to?

[navane]

Originally posted by James
A large part of the sorority system seems predicated on the idea that even if mutually selected, the numbers issue might make a PNM not get a bid for the house she wants.

Ok fair enough. But why do we expect and pressure them to join the house she doesn't want?

That seems to be an enormous flaw in the system.

Does anyone else agree? Or disagree?

Ok, I think a lot of people here went off a little bit and the only answer given to the question was "we don't do that so mind your own NIC business".

I'm not afraid to answer this question and possibly gain the disdain of my NPC sisters. Why? Because I'm not exactly the top candidate for the Miss Politically-Correct contest.

When I first read James' question, I did not think of the rules for bid-matching, or the technicalities of if a card is signed or not, etc. I immediately thought about female behaviour. In general, women are not the kind who like to be confrontational or rock the boat. Clearly, NPC women have this thing with making everything "fair" or "equal".

Now, several times I have seen an occassion where a PNM reported that she was left with chapters on her invite list which were not her 1st, 2nd, or 3rd choice. Some of these chapters were at the very bottom of the PNM's personal list. The PNM wanted so very much to be in a sorority, but she just did not want to be in that one on the bottom of her list or bid. Girls like this agonize or whether or not to quit.

I cringe when I read impassioned pleas from sorority women encouraging the PNM to not give up and to "give that chapter a chance" because, "you might end up loving it" or "that chapter must have seen something in you". Some people even go so far as to imply that a chapter will know better than the PNM as whether or not she'll fit in there, so they should just go with it. <shudder>

Given that a young woman may be agonzing over a decision, are you going to try and tell me that her Rho Chi encouraging her to not quit because "you may grow to like it" is not pressuring her to join a house she truly doesn't want?!?! I see that happening here on GC every recruitment season. Very rarely does someone say, "Yikes, you only got invited back to the one house you disliked the most and now you want to drop out? Yeah, it sounds like you may have to do that and try again at next recruitment".

Now, before someone goes off on one, let's qualify that sometimes a PNM's disappointment stems from not getting her first choice house and nothing else. These girls truly do like their 2nd choice, but, they are momentarily blinded by their emotions. In that moment of disappointment, they think that NONE of the choices are good because they got cut by that ONE chapter. These girls are the ones which need to be gently reminded about how they really liked their other houses too and how they should stay in recruitment.

However, I repeat, this is not appropriate to do with girls who believe that they got a bid from a chapter that they simply do not like. This is what I perceive James to be talking about. Why put pressure on a girl to accept that bid? What if she's miserable? How "fun" was that for her or the chapter who bid her?

What's that you say? "She could always drop out before initiation if she doesn't like it"? Yes, she could, but is that always the best idea? On some campuses, pledging a sorority, and then later dropping out, is the kiss of death. Of course, we also have the issue of being hit with the one-year rule. Great, so she spends 4 weeks with the chapter she really did not want, quits and must now wait a year because she's bound by a rule. All because someone appealed her emotions and told "but....but...but...you may end up liking it" all in the name of not being confrontational or being "fair" to a chapter. Now this PNM doesn't have a chance to find the sisterhood she really wanted because she's ineligible for informal recruitment.


James, I don't think it's a flaw in the system. I actually like some of the concepts of NPC recruitment - I also like the way NIC does it too. The "problem" here is that women have particular ways of viewing the world. It's not bad, just different. The desire to not want someone to be disappointed or have their feelings hurt sometimes causes ladies to push things in the wrong direction. If you've ever seen the mother from That 70's Show, you'll know what I mean. That character would rather cover everything up with a smile instead of address the problem.

If a PNM knows in her heart that she is not right for XYZ, then we should respect that and have full confidence in a woman to know herself and exercise her own good judgement.

.....Kelly

[33girl]

Originally posted by navane
Now, several times I have seen an occassion where a PNM reported that she was left with chapters on her invite list which were not her 1st, 2nd, or 3rd choice. Some of these chapters were at the very bottom of the PNM's personal list. The PNM wanted so very much to be in a sorority, but she just did not want to be in that one on the bottom of her list or bid. Girls like this agonize or whether or not to quit.

I cringe when I read impassioned pleas from sorority women encouraging the PNM to not give up and to "give that chapter a chance" because, "you might end up loving it" or "that chapter must have seen something in you". Some people even go so far as to imply that a chapter will know better than the PNM as whether or not she'll fit in there, so they should just go with it. <shudder>

Given that a young woman may be agonzing over a decision, are you going to try and tell me that her Rho Chi encouraging her to not quit because "you may grow to like it" is not pressuring her to join a house she truly doesn't want?!?! I see that happening here on GC every recruitment season. Very rarely does someone say, "Yikes, you only got invited back to the one house you disliked the most and now you want to drop out? Yeah, it sounds like you may have to do that and try again at next recruitment".

Now, before someone goes off on one, let's qualify that sometimes a PNM's disappointment stems from not getting her first choice house and nothing else. These girls truly do like their 2nd choice, but, they are momentarily blinded by their emotions. In that moment of disappointment, they think that NONE of the choices are good because they got cut by that ONE chapter. These girls are the ones which need to be gently reminded about how they really liked their other houses too and how they should stay in recruitment.

However, I repeat, this is not appropriate to do with girls who believe that they got a bid from a chapter that they simply do not like. This is what I perceive James to be talking about. Why put pressure on a girl to accept that bid? What if she's miserable? How "fun" was that for her or the chapter who bid her?

It depends why she "just doesn't like it." Is it because she feels she has nothing in common with the sisters, or because it isn't the most popular house? There are women - and we've seen some on GC - who go into rush liking the top 1-3 houses - thinking that they DESERVE to be in those houses - and if they get cut from those don't want to go on. It has NOTHING to do with how she related to the women in the chapter or how she feels about the sorority's values or mission - it has to do with "oh boo hoo, I was top of the heap in high school and OBVIOUSLY I should be there now as well." Sorry, but don't expect me to cry any tears for this sort of thinking.

And yes, I know that there are schools where if you're in an "unpopular" house, you have limited social options. This is truly a sucky situation. But I think in that case the sorority needs to try & find the rushees that are up for the challenge of strenghthening that chapter, instead of "let's invite everyone and hope someone comes." It makes the PNMs upset because they have to go there and it makes the sorority look bad as well.

When we say "keep an open mind" it doesn't just apply to giving chapters a chance - it also means to REALLY look at how the chapter sisters are relating to you. Don't be so desperate to make that connection that you manufacture something that isn't there and build it up - when there could be real connections somewhere else.

And as condescending as it sounds, yes, sometimes the sisters do know better than the rushee where she'll fit, at least where their own chapter is concerned. We have on our "best faces" at rush and if I get a vibe that a girl's easily intimidated by loud or sarcastic people, I know she won't fit in my chapter.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by navane

Now, several times I have seen an occassion where a PNM reported that she was left with chapters on her invite list which were not her 1st, 2nd, or 3rd choice. Some of these chapters were at the very bottom of the PNM's personal list. The PNM wanted so very much to be in a sorority, but she just did not want to be in that one on the bottom of her list or bid. Girls like this agonize or whether or not to quit.

I cringe when I read impassioned pleas from sorority women encouraging the PNM to not give up and to "give that chapter a chance" because, "you might end up loving it" or "that chapter must have seen something in you". Some people even go so far as to imply that a chapter will know better than the PNM as whether or not she'll fit in there, so they should just go with it. <shudder>

I don't mean to be overly confrontational because I agreed with much of your post, and I even agree with this passage -- to an extent. I think it's difficult for many people to understand NPC rush if they haven't been through it -- it's very much a "seeing things from the inside-out" experience -- and that is why so many of the men have issues with the way it's run.

The problem is that many of the times, a chapter DOES know better than a PNM where she belongs. I'm not going to hesitate to say that this is what happened with me. Like I said earlier in this thread, two years later I can look at some of the other houses I loved and realize that know that I probably would have depledged from all but one of them, had I joined. And I know I'm not the only person on GC who can say that. So at least a handful of us are speaking from experience.

Also -- quoting from memory from further down in your post -- I think the reason that many, many of us don't encourage girls to go through rush again is because, unless there's a specific reason that they can pinpoint as to why they were cut, and this can be changed (like raising a too-low GPA), they are probably not going to fare any better the next time around. A girl who gets cut from all but one house as a freshman will be even LESS likely to prosper in rush next year unless she makes changes, and most girls, understandably, don't. (Of course, this isn't universally true -- I met a really sweet sophomore last year during rush who said she'd rushed the year before and dropped out, and felt like, as an immature freshman, she'd put up an act during rush week and her invites had suffered because the sororities saw through it -- so this time around she was going to be her real self. I checked up on her after rush and she had gotten into a top house. But she's the exception and not the rule.) The majority of women who have been through rush on both sides can see this long before the PNMs can.

But what I think this whole thing comes down to is "Sometimes people don't get their top choices, so they have to decide whether to accept the best of what they got or to try again" -- and that's definitely not just an NPC issue. In any group where there's selective membership, it's going to be a problem.

The NIC has more freedom in the way it runs its rush process. The NPC trades autonomy for stability and I think most sorority women are fine with that. But given how often we get questioned about this by the guys, apparently most of them aren't fine with it.

[oncelurked]

Quite honestly, I agree that the chapters often know better who will fit in their chapter and be happy in their chapter than the PNMs do. I have seen situations where a girl thought she fit and the chapter didn't and where a chapter thought a girl fit but she didn't think so....in the end the chapter was generally right in either situation.

I can also say that while PNMs end up with a choice to accept or decline a bid at the end of the day, they have to make essentially the same decision a rushee after preference. No, they do not know exactly which organizations would want to give them a bid for sure, but they do know at least something about where they stand a chance. They also know if they are willing to try the different chapters out. If, after preference, a girl feels that she is not a good match with any of her options, she has the option of withdrawing. I am not sure of the official NPC policy for this since my school prohibits NPC/NIC/NPHC on campus, but if a girl withdrew, she then aquired the same status as a bidless PNM and could be offered a snap bid or go through COB.

In the NIC, a guy can go through and receive bids from several different chapters and choose among them. What if he receives bids from chapters he doesn't like and doesn't receive a bid from any of the chapters he did like? Does he feel pressured to accept a bid anyway?

[DeltaBetaBaby]

A note on the University of Illinois...

Overall, there are more men than women, this is correct. However, you must qualify this with the fact that NO NPC group will accept a woman who is not enrolled at the U of I, whereas some of the fraternities will. Also, the average time spent in school is longer for fraternity men than for sorority women.

[IvySpice]

It depends why she "just doesn't like it." Is it because she feels she has nothing in common with the sisters, or because it isn't the most popular house? There are women - and we've seen some on GC - who go into rush liking the top 1-3 houses - thinking that they DESERVE to be in those houses - and if they get cut from those don't want to go on. It has NOTHING to do with how she related to the women in the chapter or how she feels about the sorority's values or mission - it has to do with "oh boo hoo, I was top of the heap in high school and OBVIOUSLY I should be there now as well." Sorry, but don't expect me to cry any tears for this sort of thinking.

Word, word, word. These are 17-year-old girls we're talking about. Maybe in some cases she's been left with a jock house and she's a bookworm, and she and the sisters just had nothing to talk about. But what happens a lot is that a PNM is left with the ABCs, and the ABCs are just losers in her eyes. They're fat or they wear acid wash or their panty lines show and she wasn't friends with girls like that in high school. It's not that she doesn't want them as sisters -- it's that she doesn't want to be seen with them. That kind of shallow, judgmental dynamic is inevitable wherever people are forming themselves into social groups, but a major benefit of a formal system with experienced guides is that the guides can encourage the newbies not to get sucked into that way of thinking.

[navane]

Originally posted by 33girl
It depends why she "just doesn't like it." Is it because she feels she has nothing in common with the sisters, or because it isn't the most popular house? There are women - and we've seen some on GC - who go into rush liking the top 1-3 houses - thinking that they DESERVE to be in those houses - and if they get cut from those don't want to go on. It has NOTHING to do with how she related to the women in the chapter or how she feels about the sorority's values or mission - it has to do with "oh boo hoo, I was top of the heap in high school and OBVIOUSLY I should be there now as well." Sorry, but don't expect me to cry any tears for this sort of thinking.

RIGHT. That's why I very specifically said:

"Now, before someone goes off on one, let's qualify that sometimes a PNM's disappointment stems from not getting her first choice house and nothing else. These girls truly do like their 2nd choice, but, they are momentarily blinded by their emotions. In that moment of disappointment, they think that NONE of the choices are good because they got cut by that ONE chapter. These girls are the ones which need to be gently reminded about how they really liked their other houses too and how they should stay in recruitment."


.....Kelly

[navane]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
The problem is that many of the times, a chapter DOES know better than a PNM where she belongs.

Ok, let me help clarify this. I totally get that it's more likely that a chapter will know if a particular girl will fit in with them than for a girl to know if she'll fit in with a chapter. It's a numbers thing - there are more of them than there are of her.

I realize that when I said, "Some people even go so far as to imply that a chapter will know better than the PNM as whether or not she'll fit in there, so they should just go with it", I used the wrong phrasing in my statement. I said "chapter" when I was really thinking more of Rho Chis as they're the ones who are doing the talking during recruitment. A PNM might really feel uncertain about a chapter and the Rho Chi will say, "I'm sure XYZ wouldn't invite you back unless they thought you'd be great there" or something like that.

Seriously, there are instances where struggling chapters invite back every decent girl. It's not that they truly thought the PNM would be a great match for their chapter, it's that they thought, even though they don't have too many things in common, she was "decent enough" to get an invite back.

Come on folks, please, please, please.....let's not play silly now. No one goes into recruitment and says "Oh boy! I'd just LOVE to join the weakest and most unlikeable sorority on campus!" or "I'm so excited! I really hope that I get a bid from a great group of girls that I have absolutely nothing in common with!"

And, NO, I am not hating on smaller chapters or struggling chapters. During recruitment I myself passed up the two "top" houses in favour of the two "bottom" houses because, gosh darn it, I simply liked them better. So no one better accuse me of that!

AGAIN, I reiterate I am not talking about Princess PNM who thinks she is ONLY suited for one or two top chapters and will "simply die if I don't get invited back". I'm sure the Rho Chis will be sitting there irritated thinking "This is ridiculous. She would actually fit perfectly with ABC but she's too busy primping for the others to pay any notice." THESE are the girls who need a lecture about keeping their minds and options open.

I am just saying that it seems to me like women always want to try and make everyone feel better, even if it's against the recipient's better judgement. In that effort, sometimes women would rather you suck it up than to rock the boat by saying "...but I don't feel right there!!" It's like telling your friend that her hair looks nice even though her haircut is horrendus. We'd rather keep the peace and be "nice".

Sugar and Spice, I think you said it right when you commented that, "...what I think this whole thing comes down to is 'Sometimes people don't get their top choices, so they have to decide whether to accept the best of what they got or to try again' -- and that's definitely not just an NPC issue. In any group where there's selective membership, it's going to be a problem."

Exactly, a PNM should be able to make a free and clear decision based on all her available choices....even if it means deciding to Single Intentional Preference, drop out, or accept a bid. She should be able to do so without the hassle of people lecturing her about how she should keep an open mind about a group she truly dislikes. This also means not treating all freshmen like mere children just because they are young.

I don't know, I guess I'm the only person who sees things this way. Then again, all my life I've never really been a "girly-girl" type - I guess my style of reasoning is more like a man's. Heh, my boyfriend once told me, "You're pretty logical for a woman". I didn't know if I should be complimented, or if I should smack him upside his head.

.....Kelly

[HotDamnImAPhiMu]

because men think more logically than women and all sorority girls are the girly-girl type?

Not so sure how I feel about THAT.

No one is challenging the notion that if a PNM doesn't feel comfortable with a house, she shouldn't go there. In fact, the ONE non-Panhellenic thing we all seem to agree on is that sometimes, suiciding a house (ISP) is a good choice for some people.

a PNM should be able to make a free and clear decision based on all her available choices....even if it means deciding to Single Intentional Preference, drop out, or accept a bid. She should be able to do so without the hassle of people lecturing her about how she should keep an open mind about a group she truly dislikes. This also means not treating all freshmen like mere children just because they are young.

This I disagree with. We have Rho Chis for a reason -- they are women who are older, have been through the sorority experience, and, now that they've had the chance to get to know the NPC from the other side, they are also getting to know the PNMs in a way the sororities don't during rush.

I am completely fine with allowing the Rho Chis to "lecture" incoming rushing freshmen. Only at my school we call it "counseling" the PNMs because guess what? Sometimes they have a hard time making decisions and they ASK their PX for help!

As for treating them like children -- some 1st semester freshmen are 17 years old. So, legally, they ARE children. But more importantly, there is a LOT that goes on in your head and heart during the next four years of college. Please don't tell me there's no difference between the decisions of a 17 or 18 year old and the decisions of a 21 or 22 year old. A new freshman has been on campus for as little as a week, away from her parents, possibly for the first time, possibly in a new state, possibly with NO friends -- and you want her to make informed, mature decisions about a greek system she may know NOTHING about in a new environment where she knows she's been judged based on 10 minute parties all week long?

I'm sorry, but I'm a HUGE fan of PX counseling. At my school the PXes were very throughly considered -- we always had about ten apply from each sorority, and took only two or three -- and the girls were wholeheartedly devoted to making sure the PNMs found their "home." Why else would they cut off all affiliation with their sisters for months on end?

I'm not saying they never made mistakes. I'm saying they were hardly the bullying, dictorial entities you seem to be describing, taking control over the 17 year old PNMs and forcing them at gunpoint into the arms of XYZ who's been struggling the last two years.


and btw: I think a LOT of PNMs are interested in a struggling house -- I was, too. Phi Sigma Sigma on my campus was struggling when I went through (they're doing great now -- what a dedicated group of ladies!) and I SERIOUSLY considered going Phi Sig because I knew I'd make a huge difference there and be a driving force from day one. What eventually happened was a group of HS friends COB rushed, pledged (the bledge group was like twice the sisterhood) and "took over" the sorority. They knew they could turn the group into whatever they wanted (and in this case, that was a great thing!)

[33girl]

I also want to say that in some situations, I don't have any issue with girls suiciding. A lot of my chapter sisters did. They didn't feel they would fit in anywhere else. They were also SOPHOMORES OR ABOVE when they did so.

There's a big difference between a soph or junior on a small campus who has been around members of all the sororities and knows what they're like in "real life" (as opposed to rush) and a freshman at Giant State U who's been on campus for 3 minutes and knows no one.

[adpiucf]

There are PNM's who want to join a struggling house because they see it as a call to action; they will be the leader who will turn that house around. And there are other PNM's who want the "prestige" of joining an "established" chapter for the "reputation." There's nothing wrong with either; it's a personal preference.

With that in mind, I think the fraternities could do with some more structure, and that sorority formal recruitment would be a lot more comfortable if the no-frills credo was fully embraced, and the party atmosphere was a lot more casual-- based more on conversation than skits and decorations.

[navane]

Originally posted by HotDamnImAPhiMu
because men think more logically than women and all sorority girls are the girly-girl type?

Not so sure how I feel about THAT.

HotDamn, nowhere in my post did I state that I believe men think more logically. On the contrary, I mused aloud about whether I should smack my boyfriend for saying something which implied that. It was a tounge-in-cheek comment. Similarly, nowhere did I state that "ALL sorority girls are the girly-girl type". What I very clearly said was that I have never been the girly-girl type. That's me, one person. The point being that, all my life, I never seemed to be on the same wavelength as the grand majority of my [girl] friends, classmates and so on.

Please do not put words in my mouth.

This I disagree with. We have Rho Chis for a reason -- they are women who are older, have been through the sorority experience, and, now that they've had the chance to get to know the NPC from the other side, they are also getting to know the PNMs in a way the sororities don't during rush.

Actually, my friend from high school went through spring informal recruitment at a nearby university and received a bid. That fall she was a Rho Chi - she had never been on the opposite side. Plus, my own personal experience with the Rho Chi assigned to me at my uni was that she was grossly unskilled and that she lacked understanding and people skills. Unfortunately, it seems like not all campuses or occassions fit your definition. Though, I will address Rho Chis again further down.

As for treating them like children -- some 1st semester freshmen are 17 years old. So, legally, they ARE children. But more importantly, there is a LOT that goes on in your head and heart during the next four years of college. Please don't tell me there's no difference between the decisions of a 17 or 18 year old and the decisions of a 21 or 22 year old. A new freshman has been on campus for as little as a week, away from her parents, possibly for the first time, possibly in a new state, possibly with NO friends -- and you want her to make informed, mature decisions about a greek system she may know NOTHING about in a new environment where she knows she's been judged based on 10 minute parties all week long?

Oh my! Just because a very small percentage of students are short of their 18th birthday, that does not mean we should treat them like children because a couple of them are so on a technicality.

I guess I just give a lot more credit to freshmen than you do. Of course they lack experience, that's obvious. But where you claim that I'm calling Rho Chis bullies and dictators, I can claim that you're calling freshmen imbiciles who need to be coddled because they're too young to make "big girl" decisions. I know *I* wasn't like that as a freshman....I was quite sharp.

Look, maybe my viewpoint stems from that fact I am a Student Affairs Professional and that "Student Transition and Retention" is my specialty. For years I worked with thousands of freshmen and transfer students at the orientation department for the second largest university in California which has 33,000+ students. I have found in my own personal experience that, even on a huge campus where they have every opportunity to be overwhelmed, freshmen aren't as naive and dumb as people sometimes think they are.

You ask if I believe that a freshman, who has just arrived on campus and knows no one, can make an informed, mature decision. My answer is an emphatic YES.

I realized just now how interesting it is that we got on this topic - I am currently writing a dissertation for my MEd in Counselling. The topic of my research? Self-efficacy and the first year university student. Bascially, that means, "an examination of a freshman's belief that s/he is capable and prepared to handle particular tasks."

I just want to repeat something you said here:

and you want her to make informed, mature decisions about a greek system she may know NOTHING about in a new environment where she knows she's been judged based on 10 minute parties all week long?

How about if we look at this conversely? How can a sorority make informed decisions on a PNM in an environment when she's been judged on 10 minute parties all week? I should think, in this respect, it's easier for a PNM to judge 8 sororities as opposed to chapters trying to remember 1000 PNMs.

I'm sorry, but I'm a HUGE fan of PX counseling. At my school the PXes were very throughly considered -- we always had about ten apply from each sorority, and took only two or three -- and the girls were wholeheartedly devoted to making sure the PNMs found their "home." Why else would they cut off all affiliation with their sisters for months on end?

I don't have anything against Rho Chis. Barring the odd occurance like the ones I mentioned, I think they're a great idea. When done right, they're a very useful tool. How can I be against "counselling" when that's what I do for a living??

Yikes, it seems like no one is catching on here that what I'm trying to convey. Well, actually, I've received PMs (that's plural, as in, more than one) from people telling me that they understand and agree with what I've been writing here - I guess they just don't feel comfortable saying so in public. Nonetheless, I truly want you and the others (like 33girl, S&S, and so on...) to understand what I'm trying to say.

I am not saying that NPC rush is a horrifying experience because the Rho Chi slavemasters are trying to control the minds of the PNMs. What I have been trying to impress upon you all is that I sometimes think that FEMALE BEHAVIOUR sometimes finds an outlet to express itself full-force to PNMs when they are struggling with their recruitment. What I believe to be "female behaviour" in this instance entails either intentionally or unintentionally playing on another person's emotions or concerns and trying to convince them of making a decision against the person's own best judgement. The advice-giver does this either because she think she knows better or because she simply wants to quell any bad feelings and "make it all better". I see it here on GC all the time when people post to PNMs who are faced with tough decisions. It's my position that this isn't always the best thing to do. That's the question James posed to us - why in the world should a lady be expected to join a house she didn't want?

As one of the people who PM'd me said, it's in the same vein as saying, "You'll end up in the house you were meant to". A PNM is left thinking "I was meant to end up in a house I really dislike and can never see myself in?"

I'm not saying they never made mistakes. I'm saying they were hardly the bullying, dictorial entities you seem to be describing, taking control over the 17 year old PNMs and forcing them at gunpoint into the arms of XYZ who's been struggling the last two years.

Excuse me, but I did not say that. It's not fair to overexaggerate my points like that when I am making an honest effort to have a real, thoughtful discussion.

and btw: I think a LOT of PNMs are interested in a struggling house

And that's why I was sure to clarify that I am not necessarily talking about struggling chapters when talking about the houses that PNMs are disappointed to see on their invite list.

Right, well, I guess I've said all I can say about this. Heh...who am I kidding, I could probably write another 40-page essay. At any rate, I suppose we'll just have to agree that we see things differently.

.....Kelly

[GeekyPenguin]

When I was a freshmen in Cow College, I wanted to pledge a certain sorority, who we will call ZYX. I didn't rush them because my then-boyfriend told me that they were all dirty hoes. I didn't think he was telling the truth but they all seemed really nice. The next week I watched ZYX sisters geting hazed beyond what I imagined people would do to each other. One of the guys in one of my classes told me to rush Gamma Phi Beta, but I said I didn't want to be in a national sorority because they had stupid rules.

The next semester, I wanted to rush a sorority we will call KLM. I couldn't because of track. Two fraternity guys I knew told me I wouldn't fit in at KLM because I was "too nice" but I knew I wanted to be a KLM and thought that way all summer, even moreso after my boyfriend pledged a fraternity that at the time was dating a lot of KLMs. People kept telling me I wouldn't be a KLM because I'd hate it, and I didn't like what KLM did to their new members, but I wouldn't rush Gamma Phi because they had stupid national rules and I knew what was best.

You all see what letters are in my signature now.

I didn't know what was best for me as a freshman. I was at the wrong college for me and it took me two years to realize that.

LISTEN TO YOUR RHO CHI. One night of sitting through a party at Tri Delt or Gamma Phi when you really wanted to be an Alpha Gam won't kill you. Don't sign a bid card if you don't want to be in that house, but don't drop out of rush before Pref. Give that house another half hour - it could result in making one of the best decisions of your life, and if not, well, your roommate probably taped the OC for you anyway.

[HotDamnImAPhiMu]

Kelly, I'm not attacking you, and I don't understand why you feel the need to be so defensive.

You're right, we will have to agree to disagree -- on this one, I'm with GP -- I had no idea what I was doing at 18 years old. I'm really glad you were not overwhelmed, scared, or confused when you started college, and even more glad your 33,000+ kids weren't, but *I* certainly was, and I see a lot of that on GC -- women who, if just given their choice of sororities, would have picked the one they THOUGHT they matched with. And many of those women ended up with a different house and now, from the other side, feel like they wouldn't have fit in with their original choice.

And those are just the ones we hear from. GC is pretty much only people who identify strongly with their GLO affiliation, so we don't see the girls who wanted ABC because it was the "top" house on campus, rushed it hard, got it -- and hated it. And would have been much happier at DEF, and know that now.

I'm not saying freshmen can't make their own decisions. I'm saying when we use the mutual selection process (and utilize Rho Chis as counselors with both the best interests of sororities on campus AND the best interests of the PNMs, who they've gotten to know) EVERYONE benefits.

[ISUKappa]

At my school, Rho Chis had to be at least Juniors and they had to have gone through Formal Recruitment. That way they have seen both sides--as a PNM and as a sister--and are better able to answer PNM's questions. They also go through a semester-long training in how to deal with specific situations--girls that get cut from every house, girls that get cut from the one house they want, girls who aren't sure what they want, etc...--the Rho Chis are there to help. In no way are they professionals, but as their title states, they're counselors. They counsel to the best of their abilities. Granted, some are inherently better at it than others, but they have all had training.

Exactly, a PNM should be able to make a free and clear decision based on all her available choices....even if it means deciding to Single Intentional Preference, drop out, or accept a bid. She should be able to do so without the hassle of people lecturing her about how she should keep an open mind about a group she truly dislikes. This also means not treating all freshmen like mere children just because they are young.

Honestly, in all my experience as an undergrad, I've never heard of anyone really being forced to continue to attend parties at a chapter she truly dislikes. The Rho Chi may say "go back at least once and if your feelings are still strong against them, by all means cut them or drop out." My freshman roommate dropped out of recruitment on 10-party day because she just wasn't feeling the houses she was invited back to. As long as the Rho Chi feels there is a good reason for this to happen (ie, it's not Polly Princess PNM whining about being cut from the pretty house), it's usually not a huge deal. And things DO change during recruitment week as you continually spend more and more time at the chapters. THe party times increase from 15 to 30 to 45 minutes to an hour. An hour is a pretty long time to be talking to someone and should really give you a good idea whether you are a good match for that house and vice versa.

Not only should a PNM be able to make a free and clear choice, she should also be very aware on what that choice means. If she decides to SIP she has to know her chances of receiving a bid are lowered and she may be offered snap bid. If she drops out she has an opportunity to informal but the houses she was most interested in may not be COBing. And if she puts down any house on her pref card that means she is willing to accept a bid from them, even if they weren't her most favoritest house.

I agree that many college freshman are able to make their own decisions if they are given complete and honest information about what is available to them and they are honest with themselves.