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[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

please don't take my comments as verbatim. i was just speculating what those womens organizations affiliated with fraternities in the olden days could have been. i do not know what they actually were, but thought that the nearest thing we might have(or have had) would be little sister groups.

We're not questioning YOU, we're just questioning in general.

[scbelle]

Originally Posted by FSUZeta

i found my old pledge manual (1975)and will quote directly from it :

"zeta tau alpha is known as a fraternity, not as a sorority. a "fraternity" is an organization whose members have banded together for reasons of common interest and mutual benefit. there is usually some element of secrecy in its design. the terms "sorority" and "fraternity" are often used interchangeably and it is frequently necessary to do so. some women's organizations prefer "sorority", while others designate the use of "fraternity". current usage seems to favor the latter to distinguish collegiate organizations from high school or business clubs using Greek letter names and calling themselves "sororities." it was the intent of the Founders and confirmed by action at two early conventions that zeta tau alpha be designated as a "fraternity". this was done to distinguish our organization from the sisterhoods organized in connection with men's fraternities, called "sororoties."

i would venture to guess that at the time of our founding, there were women's auxillary organizations linked to fraternities, much like little sister organizations of my era, and they were calling themselves sororoties.

honest to goodness, all those years ago, it never crossed my mind that fraternity and sorority could not be used interchangeably. everyone referred to the girls as members of sororities.in fact, i thought it was odd that we are a women's fraternity.

to me, it is "you say potato and i say po tah toe." we all have strong sisterhoods and do good works. enough said!

Is "sororoties" a direct quote from the manual or a typo? Because if it is the word used (versus sororities), that explains a lot to me. ZTA would definitely want to use fraternity opposed to "sororoty"... and then SthrnZeta's comment shouldn't really be so offensive to Gamma Phi Beta because they coined the term "sorority"... not the word that ZTA was adamant against using. Man, that was a lot of typing if that was a typo!!

[FSUZeta]

Originally Posted by scbelle

Is "sororoties" a direct quote from the manual or a typo? Because if it is the word used (versus sororities), that explains a lot to me. ZTA would definitely want to use fraternity opposed to "sororoty"... and then SthrnZeta's comment shouldn't really be so offensive to Gamma Phi Beta because they coined the term "sorority"... not the word that ZTA was adamant against using. Man, that was a lot of typing if that was a
typo!!

oh puh-leeze! it is a typo on my part. my proofreader took the morning off and i have arthritis and sometimes my fingers don't work as well as they used to. i will correct it right away.

alphafrog, i took nothing personally, just wanted to clarify that i was just guessing along with everyone else. maybe someone can find the answer for us. i'll bet if anyone could, it would be the woman who had compiled the online greekpages. what was her name?

[SWTXBelle]

I just figured that if ZTA had it as part of the pledge manual, there must be some reason - perhaps as has been mentioned it was a local group, and thus off our NPC radars. The paragraph does seem to imply that sororities were "little sister" type groups, which we've established is not the case in terms of NPC sororities, none of which were formed as support groups for any fraternities. So, my question is what group(s) was ZTA thinking of when writing that paragraph?
(And I love that you have your pledge manual , FSUZeta- wish I could find mine!)

[33girl]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I just figured that if ZTA had it as part of the pledge manual, there must be some reason - perhaps as has been mentioned it was a local group, and thus off our NPC radars. The paragraph does seem to imply that sororities were "little sister" type groups, which we've established is not the case in terms of NPC sororities, none of which were formed as support groups for any fraternities. So, my question is what group(s) was ZTA thinking of when writing that paragraph?

Especially since ZTA was founded at an all-female school. The only conclusion I come to is that it's referring to KD, and I've never heard anything (granted, I don't know their history that well) that says any man had anything to do w/ KD's founding.

Maybe there was a bunch of townies hanging around the Hampden-Sydney dudes calling themselves a sorority and being annoying.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally Posted by navane

Wow...ok.


Point of clarification - I'm not sure what you were getting at just then, but Gamma Phi Beta's colors were not selected by a man. They were selected by the sisters to honor a gentleman, Dr. Brown, who allowed early Gamma Phi Betas to use his study for meetings.

It seems just a bit out of order that you should give me and my sisters lessons on the history our own organization.

.....Kelly

Especially since our original colors were not brown, meaning at the time of the founding they had nothing whatsoever to do with a man. (wishes the board had a lightbulb smile)

[SWTXBelle]

Not to mention that there is more to our colours than honouring Dr. Brown . . .

[SthrnZeta]

Thanks FSU for clearing that up - my pledge manual is in a big tupperware tub and I didn't feel like digging through it.

As far as little sister orgs, I know of at least one for sure that was a group of women at UGA (stopped in the late 70s I think) that was a little sister org to DTD there, they even have their own composites in the house. I'm not sure if it's a 20th century thing but I was always under the impression it was much older until I saw those composites in the house (Iris Sisters I think they were called... not sure).

At first I too thought using the word fraternity was odd, but when it was explained to me that a sorority had a men's organization help them get founded it made sense to me and I was always proud of the fact that we were a "womens fraternity. That's not to deman any other group, I just thought the reason was neat. I wholeheartedly agree that we all have wonderful attributes, etc. and I certainly don't think that ZTA is necessarily "better" than any other org (of course I love it above all others, can't be helped!). Obviously I don't know what other meaning the colors for Gamma Phi have besides honoring Dr. Brown, I would assume they hold a special meaning beyond that, just as Zeta's colors do and all other orgs. I appreciate the fact that you all love Gamma Phi as I love ZTA and would stand up for your org so I don't take any of this personally either, but a little more discussion and little less attitude would be nice

[33girl]

Originally Posted by SthrnZeta

At first I too thought using the word fraternity was odd, but when it was explained to me that a sorority had a men's organization help them get founded it made sense to me and I was always proud of the fact that we were a "womens fraternity. That's not to deman any other group, I just thought the reason was neat.

But the reason is UNTRUE. That's what everyone is trying to get across. I am a member of a sorority and no men had anything to do with our founding.

Just because ZTA didn't want to get confused with the Hampden Sydney groupie sorority or whoever the heck they were, does not mean that EVERY group called a sorority had men involved in any way in their creation. It's like if a brothel were called the "Majorette Manor" and the girls called themselves "majorettes" and the real baton-twiriling majorettes in the area decided to call themselves "Twirl Squad" to avoid confusion. It doesn't mean all majorettes are hookers just because that ONE group decided to not use the word.

Thanks a hell of a lot GroovePhi62 for taking us down this path for the umpteenth time, bwah.

[NutBrnHair]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

I found it odd when I was at ChiO's rush party (back when I rushed) and they said "women's fraternity", because they were the only one out of 7 orgs on my campus. ASA, AST, DZ, PhiSig, SigKap, and Sigma are all sororities, and, of course, we had "Sorority Recruitment", so I didn't quite get why ChiO kept saying "fraternity". Throw that under the "dumb reasons for cutting a group" thread...I didn't want to be in a fraternity!!!

I usually just say "my sorority" when talking to non-members because it is confusing and unnecessary to have to explain the difference to someone who could care less.

[NutBrnHair]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Not to mention that there is more to our colours than honouring Dr. Brown . . .

Did you buy too many vowels?

[SthrnZeta]

Originally Posted by 33girl

But the reason is UNTRUE. That's what everyone is trying to get across. I am a member of a sorority and no men had anything to do with our founding.

Thanks a hell of a lot GroovePhi62 for taking us down this path for the umpteenth time, bwah.

I know that NOW. All I was saying is that this is what I was taught as a NM and that's what has been taught and is still being taught. Trust me, I appreciate the clarifications.

And I also refer to Zeta as my sorority to non-Greeks because it's just easier. I'm sure most of us are guilty of that who belong to womens fraternities, lol.

[SWTXBelle]

British spelling, NutBrnHair - and hey, I like me some vowels!

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Especially since ZTA was founded at an all-female school. The only conclusion I come to is that it's referring to KD....

Perhaps it was due to ZTA's being founded after both KD and Tri Sigma (at Longwood). Perhaps, since the first two were called sororities, ZTA's founders felt the need to differentiate themselves by calling themselves a fraternity.

[SWTXBelle]

But then why the reference to an association with men's fraternities?