Toast Song

[33girl]

Like I said, I've heard that song before, and it isn't to the tune of our Toast Song. The Kellerman's song from Dirty Dancing is, though.

I just think when you change the word "brother" to "friend" or "member" or "true to" you're making a very important statement, and IMO it's not that "we are gender inclusive" - it's "this is a club, not a fraternity." I feel the same way about some of the things in my sorority, FWIW - there are times when we say "member" when I really think we should say (and mean) "sister."

[emb021]

Some comments.

Most of the proposals out there are to change "Men of" to "True to". NONE propose change/removing "Brothers".

As I've said before, the problem is that too many forget that the terms "Man/Men" ALSO refer to 'mankind'. Watch the LOTR movies, and you'll see that they use the term "Men/Men" to refer to humans (as opposed to dwards, elves, etc).

If you can't believe that people get riled up about 'changing a couple of words' in the Toast Song, I recommend you come to Nationals and find out when several hundred of your Brothers deal with the issue.


One thing I do get annoyed of in this discussion is those that try to use history/tradition to prevent change. What is annoying is that many of those people don't seem to really be aware of the many changes that HAVE occured in APO. Our Coat of Arms is NOT what the Founders had. We've made radical changes in our national structure. The Service Pin came out a decade or so after our founding, etc. But I feel that our fundamentals have not changed.

[DeltaPyrite]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Like I said, I've heard that song before, and it isn't to the tune of our Toast Song.

Ah, that's good to know. When I was reading those lyrics they fit in with the Toast Song tune, so I just assumed...

I just think when you change the word "brother" to "friend" or "member" or "true to" you're making a very important statement, and IMO it's not that "we are gender inclusive" - it's "this is a club, not a fraternity." I feel the same way about some of the things in my sorority, FWIW - there are times when we say "member" when I really think we should say (and mean) "sister."

I guess that's where we disagree. I don't think calling each other "Brother" and referring to ourselves as "men of Alpha Phi Omega" and "brothers" are what make us a fraternity rather than a club. I don't think it's a semantic distinction. It's the fellowship and brotherhood between members. That relationship itself, along with our ideals, our letters, and our ritual are what, in my mind, set us apart from clubs. That's actually how we pitch the fraternity to prospective members. There is another service organization on campus, but we distinguish ourselves from them by explaining the fellowship/fraternity aspect, which TUVAC can't offer.

NONE propose change/removing "Brothers".

Actually, for the record, my chapter does sing "Brothers clasp the hands of sisters." I know a lot of people here loathe that particular change, and I understand why. But it's the lyric I've sung every week since joining, so I am rather attached to it.

[emb021]

Originally Posted by DeltaPyrite

Actually, for the record, my chapter does sing "Brothers clasp the hands of sisters." I know a lot of people here loathe that particular change, and I understand why. But it's the lyric I've sung every week since joining, so I am rather attached to it.

Many of us 'loathe' it because there are no Sisters in APO. We are all, male and female, Brothers. While I don't have a problem with True to, I DO have a problem with that.

Your Chapter had done you and all its members a great disservice by teaching them the Toast Song incorrectly. While I don't have a problem with some chapters' little traditions in regards to the TS (stomping and the like), changing lyrics is going too far.

[naraht]

I can only find two chapters on the web who appear to use "brothers clasp the hands of sisters" in a chapter version of the toast song. AGK at Southwestern U. and Omicron at U of Iowa. Both of them specifically say that the National one is to be used at conferences. (In fact more than half the google hits on "brothers clasp the hands of sisters" are on greekchat.com.)

In my area Region III, section 85/86, I only know of one chapter that uses "sisters" at all and that is Mu Alpha at Georgetown U. Some of the brothers who are women are vehemently *for* using sister and some are just as vehemently *against* it. From their online history "Women in Mu Alpha Chapter are referred to as Brothers on the National level, but have the choice to be referred to as either Brothers or Sisters at the chapter level."

Looking out at the web(Google search for sister and "alpha phi omega", chapters in APO-USA that seem to use the term sister in any way include Mu Alpha @ Georgetown, Omicron @ U of Iowa, Omicron Zeta @ CSU Hayward, Beta Eta at U of Missouri, Iota Alpha @ UTennKnoxville, Delta Pi @ Trinity, Gamma Sigma @ UChicago. This group was outnumbered by references to sisters at APO-Phil and almost outnumbered by posts talking about GSS or OPA members as sisters to Alpha Phi Omega brothers. (the largest number in any group was Alpha Phi Omega and the group Big Brothers/Big Sisters in the same webpage.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by emb021

Some comments.

Most of the proposals out there are to change "Men of" to "True to". NONE propose change/removing "Brothers".

Sorry to bump (you know I am) but I thought there were instances of chapters singing "members clasp the hands of members."

[naraht]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Sorry to bump (you know I am) but I thought there were instances of chapters singing "members clasp the hands of members."

Not that I can find on the web.

OTOH, if someone proposed that, I think the first amendment would be to
"members clasp the members of members"

[33girl]

Originally Posted by naraht

Not that I can find on the web.

OTOH, if someone proposed that, I think the first amendment would be to
"members clasp the members of members"

That's why I hate using the word "member" in APO or ASA - I have watched too much Beavis and Butt-Head in my life for it not to have that connotation.

[emb021]

Originally Posted by DeltaPyrite

I guess that's where we disagree. I don't think calling each other "Brother" and referring to ourselves as "men of Alpha Phi Omega" and "brothers" are what make us a fraternity rather than a club. I don't think it's a semantic distinction. It's the fellowship and brotherhood between members. That relationship itself, along with our ideals, our letters, and our ritual are what, in my mind, set us apart from clubs.

Well, I think there are many who would disagree with you.

Using terms like "Brother" is an outward sign of the brotherhood that exists between members, and is part of what makes us a fraternity and not a club. Too many in our fraternity forget this (or never learned it), and thus they think we are nothing more then a 'service club', and don't understand the important of our relationship between members (signified in part by calling everyone "Brother), our ideals, letters, rituals, etc.

There are some who think that there is a 'battle' growing between two sides within the fraternity. Between those who think us only a service club and would be quite happy to toss aside thinks such as our Toast Song, calling members Brothers, rituals, and who knows what else; and those who want us to continue being a service Fraternity, and all that entails (tho don't make the mistake of assuming they feel we should be male-only).

I'm not sure if I fully buy into that idea. But I do have to admit that I put myself on the side of those who want us to remain a service Fraternity. I do not feel that changing our Toast song from 'Men of' to 'True to' is a betrayal of this. But I am resistant to those who want to change "brothers clasp the hands of brothers" to something else, weaking the use of the term "brother", and all the rest.

(btw, in case its not clear, I find no problem with being a co-ed organization, being a service Fraternity, and calling all our members Brothers).

[Curtzilla]

Originally Posted by naraht

I can only find two chapters on the web who appear to use "brothers clasp the hands of sisters" in a chapter version of the toast song. AGK at Southwestern U. and Omicron at U of Iowa. Both of them specifically say that the National one is to be used at conferences. (In fact more than half the google hits on "brothers clasp the hands of sisters" are on greekchat.com.)

You can add Phi Xi at Austin College, they are currently singing it that way in their meetings, at least they did the last time I visited them.

[Shima-Mizu]

Originally Posted by Curtzilla

You can add Phi Xi at Austin College, they are currently singing it that way in their meetings, at least they did the last time I visited them.

We didn't sing it that way at my undergrad chapter, but it's a nice idea and I think if we want to keep with a greek organization theme that's a good way to change it.

[Attractive#7]

Originally Posted by SexySuperstar

I never think that the toast song should be changed but I will admit that at Epsilon Mu(UMD- College Park) we added a verse.

Sing we now both men and women, brothers all are we
Hearts as one, we praise together our diversity
Ever growing, ever learning, so that we may be
Joined in Alpha Phi Omega, for eternity.

We never chaneged the fact that we are all brothers. We just expanded on the fact that we're all brothers(not matter what the sex of the person is).

I think this is beautiful and would be a beautiful addition as a 3rd verse of our beloved Toast Song. I do not want the 1st 2 verses of the Toast Song to change. I love the song as is. I do think adding a 3rd verse would be a neat idea. By the way, we haven't always had this song, nor 2 verses to it. From our national website:

1. The lyrics to the first verse of this song were created in 1931 by Dale Bartlett of Iota chapter at Park College. The second verse was written by Robert Northwood of Epsilon Mu at the University of Maryland and were adopted as part of the Toast Song at the National Convention in 1964. http://www.apo.org/pages/show/About_...ons/Toast_Song

[Attractive#7]

Originally Posted by 33girl

The Kellerman's song from Dirty Dancing is, though.

I watched a scene from the movie, The Ringer today. The scene showed the characters watching a scene from the movie Dirty Dancing. They played a song and I was like HEY IT'S THE TOAST SONG!!! It wasn't the words to the Toast Song, but it was the tune. I've been trying to figure out all night, which is why I posted the topic on the Toast Song...you are a lifesaver!

[Attractive#7]

Originally Posted by CasanovaAPQ

this is just like trying to tell the all male chapters to go co-ed its not going to happen anytime soon.

Sorry brother, I guess anytime soon came sooner than expected.

[arvid1978]

Originally Posted by CasanovaAPQ

this is just like trying to tell the all male chapters to go co-ed its not going to happen anytime soon, may happen one day but not in the next 2 years so lets please talk about something else.

While browsing around looking up APO information, I came across this. I know the thread is about 2 years old, but looks like his prediction was way off. The 2006 National Convention not only uphelp the Open Membership policy, but defined what it is, and declared that all chapters are to make genuine good faith efforts to be co-ed and multi-racial.