ITT We Discuss Theology

[KSUViolet06]

As for me, I grew up in a Baptist-y home.

When I went to college, I started attending a non-denominational church because I'm one of those people who likes more laid-back settings. I love it.

My grandparents are now convinced that I'm a heathen don't believe in God anymore (because I no longer attend the Baptist church they've attended since we moved to OH).

LOL.

[DrPhil]

I read that as "I blew up in a Baptist-y home." LOL.

I'm nondenominational so I go to whatever kinda church that I choose. Take dat! Take dat!

[aephi alum]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

My grandparents are now convinced that I'm a heathen don't believe in God anymore (because I no longer attend the Baptist church they've attended since we moved to OH).

LOL.

Heh. My father believes I'm a heathen (as he defines it, "an irreligious, uncultured, or uncivilized person"), and has called me this to my face, because I am not Catholic. According to him, you're either Catholic or you're doomed to hell. It has apparently completely escaped his notice that Jesus was Jewish.

[AXOmom]

For the last few days I’ve avoided this thread like a plague (couldn’t resist that biblical reference). My father is a former seminary professor and my husband is a minister, so I’m not exactly starved for theological discussions, and usually public forums aren’t the best formats for it.

Curiosity won out and I opened what I expected to be Pandora’s box. I was pleasantly surprised to find a generally civil, thoughtful discussion about some good issues. You don’t see that much anymore – particularly not on internet forums.

I don’t know a specific definition for my theological persuasion-probably conservative Christians or Christian Biblicists. I was fortunate to be raised by parents who had strong beliefs that they hoped I would share, but they felt I needed to form my own conclusions and not follow a belief system out of habit. My dad wanted me to know what I believed and more importantly, why I believed it; he also held that it was impossible to stand up for or defend your own convictions if you didn’t know or understand anyone else’s, so he encouraged me to listen, research, and expose myself to other viewpoints.

So I spent four years at the University of Oregon where I was exposed up the wazzu. All four years I listened to people whose views were usually diametrically opposed to every belief I had and while it often frustrated me (they weren’t terribly open to opposing schools of thought), it forced me to figure out what convictions were really mine and not just something I inherited.

I agree with what many posters on here have already said – too many times people from all different belief systems make generalizations about what others believe without taking the time to find out if those generalizations are accurate. Too often we just accept what we hear.

That just leads to – well, exactly what I assumed I would find when I opened this thread – people trading useless insults on a forum - clearly a mistaken assumption on my part.

In addition to reading the Bible itself much more thoroughly during my college years, there were three books on theology and apologetics that helped me sort through what I believed: GK Chesterton’s Orthodoxy, CS Lewis’ Mere Christianity, and Lee Stroubel’s The Case for Christ. I throw those out there not because I think they will necessarily change anyone’s viewpoints, but if you have an interest in theology and apologetics or if you just are curious about what orthodox Christians believe, these are probably the clearest and most concise in their explanations.

I for one am equally interested in hearing about things others have read that have had an impact on their theological views (I know some have already been mentioned), so please pm me with suggested reading.

Drollefille, I’ve appreciated you contributions to this thread in particular. I obviously have come to different conclusions than you on the claims of Christ, BUT you’ve clearly put a lot of thought into your positions and done your research. It comes across in posts that are reasoned and well-articulated. Public discourse needs more of that.

To the OP – I give you mad props for starting a thread that was a little deeper than whether one should wear black flats or silver heels for preference. Still, threatening to put sacred literature in a body orifice is probably not the best way to begin a thread designed to encourage open theological discussions. Of course, I didn’t read the thread that prompted that outburst, so maybe it was deserved. The English teacher in me also has to agree with Sensuret that your discussion topic was overly broad; you might narrow the field next time.

Whew….I’m long winded – proof that I’m a minister’s daughter. This thread has pushed my deep thoughts boundary. I’m going back to the mindless entertainment of recruitment stories and football forums now.

[DubaiSis]

I'm with you AXOMom. I was sure this was going to be just what you described but have actually enjoyed following this. And for as far to the other ends of this discussion as the two of us are, it's nice to know we can have a chat about it.

For an alternative viewpoint that DOESN'T say all spirituality is stupid, read or listen to anything by Joseph Campbell. He's the one who coined the phrase "follow your bliss" which is maybe the best guide to life ever. I have to admit I have not personally read his books, but saw a lengthy PBS thing on him, and have gotten active recaps of the books from my husband. You know... when he reads so much of the book to me, a year later I can't remember if I actually read it myself or just got the lecture so many times it's ingrained.

For the more argumentative authors, try Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. Although I do on some level agree with them, I feel like they just come off as angry. But DH eats it up. Frankly, I don't care that much, but I think he's coming from a very different upbringing than I had and finds comfort in reading about the discrepancies and inaccuracies in christianity that match what he believes. Don't make me try to explain that one!

For an explanation of why I am vehemently opposed to teaching creationism, google flying spaghetti monster. It is VERY funny stuff, but does point out the key issue for why creationism can't be taught in public schools - who's version of creationism do you want to teach? But I'd be all over it being taught in a sociology class.

[AXOmom]

DubaiSis,

Thank you for the suggestions. I'm very familiar with Richard Dawkins, but I'll look around for the others.

Actually, I'm not a proponent of teaching creationism in public schools. I agree that there are many religions with creation beliefs, and they can't possibly cover them all in a science class nor should they necessarily. All that I would like to see is science teachers being respectful of these differing beliefs. Evolution is still a theory and a simple acknowledgement of that would be enough for me. If a science teacher says, "We teach evolution because most scientists and our school system believe that this is where current scientific evidence leads and this is the theory they think is most likely, but there are many other beliefs out there about how life came to be on this planet. If you are interested you are free to research those on you own," then I would be a perfectly happy camper, and I think its a compromise most people on both sides of the fence could live with.

What bothers me is when a student who holds to some form of creationism sits in a classroom and is told that evolution is fact (no doubt whatsoever), and their belief is a myth (no doubt whatsoever). That happened to me - often.

My daughter sat in an anthropology class last winter and on the first day the professor said (and I'm quoting pretty much verbatim here), "I teach evolution because I think any belief that says some diety created life is ridiculous. I might as well say some spaghetti man came down and made the world." This is at a university (my alma mater) that, again, prides itself on open mindedness, tolerance, and diversity. Apparently the concept that respect for diversity includes people who hold religous beliefs was news to her. My daughter certainly expected the prof to teach evolution - nothing new with that - she just didn't expect that level of disrespect towards opposing viewpoints publicly from a teacher at a university.

Anyway - end of my vent. As I said, most everyone here seems much more capable of handling those differences in a civil, respectful way.

Thank you again for the reading suggestions. I'll look for them and add them to my reading list.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AXOmom

Drollefille, I’ve appreciated you contributions to this thread in particular. I obviously have come to different conclusions than you on the claims of Christ, BUT you’ve clearly put a lot of thought into your positions and done your research. It comes across in posts that are reasoned and well-articulated. Public discourse needs more of that.

Many thanks, and thanks for your contribution. I'm often afraid that even my well reasoned positions won't be taken well as I can not always recall my sources, or pull them up to double check my own recollections. But I had the privilege of a Jesuit education, one that encourages questioning. Even if they wouldn't be thrilled with my conclusions either, they would respect them

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AXOmom

DubaiSis,

Thank you for the suggestions. I'm very familiar with Richard Dawkins, but I'll look around for the others.

Actually, I'm not a proponent of teaching creationism in public schools. I agree that there are many religions with creation beliefs, and they can't possibly cover them all in a science class nor should they necessarily. All that I would like to see is science teachers being respectful of these differing beliefs. Evolution is still a theory and a simple acknowledgement of that would be enough for me. If a science teacher says, "We teach evolution because most scientists and our school system believe that this is where current scientific evidence leads and this is the theory they think is most likely, but there are many other beliefs out there about how life came to be on this planet. If you are interested you are free to research those on you own," then I would be a perfectly happy camper, and I think its a compromise most people on both sides of the fence could live with.

What bothers me is when a student who holds to some form of creationism sits in a classroom and is told that evolution is fact (no doubt whatsoever), and their belief is a myth (no doubt whatsoever). That happened to me - often.

My daughter sat in an anthropology class last winter and on the first day the professor said (and I'm quoting pretty much verbatim here), "I teach evolution because I think any belief that says some diety created life is ridiculous. I might as well say some spaghetti man came down and made the world." This is at a university (my alma mater) that, again, prides itself on open mindedness, tolerance, and diversity. Apparently the concept that respect for diversity includes people who hold religous beliefs was news to her. My daughter certainly expected the prof to teach evolution - nothing new with that - she just didn't expect that level of disrespect towards opposing viewpoints publicly from a teacher at a university.

Anyway - end of my vent. As I said, most everyone here seems much more capable of handling those differences in a civil, respectful way.

Thank you again for the reading suggestions. I'll look for them and add them to my reading list.

As far as evolution being "just a theory." That is not how the word "Theory" works in science. Being a theory means it is supported by all the evidence and both predicts and describes behavior. Gravity is also a "theory" for example. A more appropriate acknowledgment to me is "Evolution is based on scientific facts. Science doesn't take an opinion on matters of faith or religion. Hopefully you will explore these issues in an appropriate theology/philosophy/etc. class or on your own." I'm not sure such a disclaimer is even necessary unless the issue is actually raised. (Then again, Catholic grade school/high school/college taught evolution so I never had that struggle in school.)

The professor is an asshat, and lifted the Flying Spaghetti Monster concept without doing it well and being rude in the process. The FSM was created in response to people who wanted to introduce intelligent design into schools in Kansas (i think) arguing that they had just as much evidence for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism as the proponents of Intelligent Design had.

They're right, as far as science goes, and that was their point. Intelligent Design is creationism re-wrapped in fudged science and a pretty name. And it doesn't belong in a science class. While I personally disagree with teaching "Young Earth Creationism" as it both contradicts all evidence and implies that God put dinosaur bones there to trick us, it's a private school's right to do so. In contrast, the "evolution was guided by God with a plan" theory that Catholics subscribe to supports the science while providing their religious perspective as well. All of this makes sense in private schools only though. Public schools don't need any of it taught whether packaged as Intelligent design or not, not in Science/Natural Science/Biology/etc.

Long story short, I have no problem with keeping science in science class and religion in religion class. But neither side needs to be an ass about it. (The being an ass thing is why I'm not a fan of Dawkins or some of the other 'new' atheists. )

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by AXOmom

What bothers me is when a student who holds to some form of creationism sits in a classroom and is told that evolution is fact (no doubt whatsoever), and their belief is a myth (no doubt whatsoever). That happened to me - often.

This one bothers me for a slightly different reason -- typically the person spouting a view like this doesn't understand what "myth" means. Myth = untrue. In fact, one could say that a myth is, by definition true. A story doesn't have to be factual to be True or to convey Truth.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

As far as evolution being "just a theory." That is not how the word "Theory" works in science. Being a theory means it is supported by all the evidence and both predicts and describes behavior. Gravity is also a "theory" for example. A more appropriate acknowledgment to me is "Evolution is based on scientific facts. Science doesn't take an opinion on matters of faith or religion. Hopefully you will explore these issues in an appropriate theology/philosophy/etc. class or on your own." I'm not sure such a disclaimer is even necessary unless the issue is actually raised. (Then again, Catholic grade school/high school/college taught evolution so I never had that struggle in school.)

Agree on this. Coming from a mainline Protestant background, I never saw either the reason for controversy or the reason to set up evolution and the Bible as mutually exclusive alternatives. To me, it was sufficient to say that evolution seeks to explain the "how," while religion (or philosophy) seeks to explain the "why" and the "what it means."

[VandalSquirrel]

I always liked the statement of:

I'm not going to debate creationism and evolution in this course. In this course we are learning about evolution, and it makes no difference if you believe in it or not, but you better know it for the test. If you have a problem with this I have a list of courses you can take that will fufill the same requirement this course does, and you will be signed in immediately.

Thank you professor in large lecture Physical Anthropology course freshman year. I'd also like to thank my biology professor who kindly discussed with me that if I can have faith and believe, why not believe that God can have a hand in evolution.

I get so frustrated with people who criticize something they don't understand that challenges their religious beliefs. With that statement I'd like everyone who thinks evolution means "we came from monkeys" and who doesn't understand the shared people and stories of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, to all STFU and go to the library before they pass judgment. they could also get different versions/translations of the Bible and have a nice etymology lesson while they are at it. Greek & Latin sholarship for the win.

[IrishLake]

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel

if I can have faith and believe, why not believe that God can have a hand in evolution.

I get so frustrated with people who criticize something they don't understand that challenges their religious beliefs. With that statement I'd like everyone who thinks evolution means "we came from monkeys" and who doesn't understand the shared people and stories of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, to all STFU and go to the library before they pass judgment.

I live by the first sentance, it's how I can be a scientist and have a Faith at the same time.

And as for the second - one of my biggest pet peeves when people think the theory of evolution means we came from monkies. HATE IT.

And as for Drolefille's dinosaurs - the only time I was ever excused from a class in high school was my freshman religion class, when the ancient nun insisted that fossils and dinosaurs were a hoax, a clever science fiction story in the works. We obviously didn't agree. My private Catholic high school also taught evolution, and this lady was a whack job. (Of course, she also roller skated through the lunch room playing an accordian at the same time - no joke, it was her yearly thing).

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by IrishLake

I live by the first sentance, it's how I can be a scientist and have a Faith at the same time.

And as for the second - one of my biggest pet peeves when people think the theory of evolution means we came from monkies. HATE IT.

And as for Drolefille's dinosaurs - the only time I was ever excused from a class in high school was my freshman religion class, when the ancient nun insisted that fossils and dinosaurs were a hoax, a clever science fiction story in the works. We obviously didn't agree. My private Catholic high school also taught evolution, and this lady was a whack job. (Of course, she also roller skated through the lunch room playing an accordian at the same time - no joke, it was her yearly thing).

OMFG you got to live Sister Act! Jealous of the Sister Mary Clarence action.



That's it, I am emailing you my Jesus Pony pictures. You're now in my special club. I think for us though, we have a hands on relationship with the fossil record. No Archbishop Ussher can tell me any different about things I've touched and uncovered with my own hands and trowel. I did meet someone in the field who really though people and dinos lived together, and I couldn't believe they were working with science. The Flintstones and Land of the Lost are not documentaries.

[DubaiSis]

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel

I always liked the statement of:

In this course we are learning about evolution, and it makes no difference if you believe in it or not, but you better know it for the test. If you have a problem with this I have a list of courses you can take that will fufill the same requirement this course does, and you will be signed in immediately.

This is almost verbatim what I was told in high school science, along with "this is what we're going to be learning about in this class. Go home and discuss it with your parents." This to me is the absolute best advice for a bunch of reasons, forcing your parents to explain what they believe and why among them.

[DubaiSis]

Oh, and the whole "theory" argument drives me up a tree, much like a monkey. The word has 2 mutually exclusive definitions.

[IrishLake]

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel

OMFG you got to live Sister Act! Jealous of the Sister Mary Clarence action.

I did meet someone in the field who really though people and dinos lived together, and I couldn't believe they were working with science. The Flintstones and Land of the Lost are not documentaries.

Her name was Sister Mary Bernita, and we called her Sister Bernita. She was pushing 70 back in '95, and I think she's still alive. (shiver) And I think I really do need to see Jesus Pony pictures, will make my Monday much better!

Someday VS, if you're ever in the Greater Cinci area, you and me, we're going to the Creation Museum in Northern Kentucky!!!!