Leaving Fraternity

[knight_shadow]

^^ That's...odd.

I can't believe that an I/HQ would put forth so much effort to keep someone who doesn't want to be there. You can terminate someone's membership and bill them for their financial obligations. There's no need to hold on to that member (unless the org is just intentionally trying to be mean and prevent them from joining another organization).

[tallgreekalum]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

RE: this issue, I have some amount of experience with it.

Here is a situation that happened on my campus while I was in college (at a fraternity I frequently hung out at before this whole drama made me realize they were sort of lame):

ABC's charter was revoked for risk management issues over the summer. However, the charges were viewed by many as bogus.

The ABCs did not want to lie down and lose their status as a fraternity. They decided to pursue affiliation with another NIC organization. To clarify, when their charter was revoked, they remained members of ABC - alumni members.

They pursued affiliation with XYZ. In order to become members of XYZ and follow NIC policy, they all resigned their membership with ABC. However, ABC refused to release them as members. It seemed (at the time) that you could somehow RESIGN your membership but not be RELEASED from obligation to ABC (legally). At least that was ABC's argument.

The former members of ABC initiated into XYZ and were chartered as a chapter of XYZ without getting an official release from ABC. Their argument was that ABC's stance that resignation vs. release from obligations would not stand up in court. There was speculation on campus that ABC would sue XYZ, but in fact that never happened. I don't know if was because they didn't have a case, or if it just wasn't worth it to them.

XYZ ultimately failed as an organization on campus when IFC and Student Life both refused to recognize them.

Many of the members of ABC/XYZ joined another fraternity on campus that had previously been quite strong but had suddenly encountered trouble and was in need of members. We'll call this MNO. Supposedly, the ABC/XYZ members were "social members" of MNO only - they lived in the house and paid social fees for parties and food, but were not initiated members of MNO (this was a somewhat common practice at my university). However, I heard rumors that some ABC/XYZ members were ALSO initiated into MNO. Certainly many of them attended some national MNO events sponsored by the fraternity headquarters - and I have pictures to prove it. I have no idea if they pursued a release from XYZ as well, if they were indeed initiated.

So it does happen. And this has happened at other campuses too, with XYZ being the incoming organization, I might add. Of course it's not common, because most NIC orgs, unlike XYZ, have too much self-respect to attempt to pull off something lame like this.

The part that surprises me about the whole thing still is that MNO got dragged into it - but I guess they figured better take the ABC/XYZs than die. Although I don't think MNO will ever be the fraternity it once was, because the ABC/XYZs took over their rush.

By XYZ you mean ADPhi. Perhaps the self respect issue should be about those fraternities that feel the proper way to run a fraternal organization is to treat it's members like children, and to be more concerned with insurance cost than with chapter quality. Yes, we have affiliated two former chapters of other fraternities and discussed it with another. In each case we felt that the international reasons for pulling the chapter's charter were not legitimate, or had happened a fair amount of time ago and that the issues no longer applied. At W&L the initial letter to the members expelled them, thus we interpreted it to mean that they were free to join another fraternity. We were later overuled by NIC. We acted in good faith.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by tallgreekalum

By XYZ you mean ADPhi. Perhaps the self respect issue should be about those fraternities that feel the proper way to run a fraternal organization is to treat it's members like children, and to be more concerned with insurance cost than with chapter quality. Yes, we have affiliated two former chapters of other fraternities and discussed it with another. In each case we felt that the international reasons for pulling the chapter's charter were not legitimate, or had happened a fair amount of time ago and that the issues no longer applied. At W&L the initial letter to the members expelled them, thus we interpreted it to mean that they were free to join another fraternity. We were later overuled by NIC. We acted in good faith.

That's nice. As someone fairly close to the situation, I think you somewhat mischaracterize Sigma Phi Epsilon in this scenario as "more concerned with insurance cost than chapter quality." To be honest, I don't totally agree that the charter should have been yanked. Especially given the general goings-on at W&L fraternities, what happened with W&L SPE was fairly minor. However, there were certainly reasons that the charter was yanked, reasons that I believe SigEp could easily cite and would be in line with the risk management standards it publicizes to its members.. Of course, SigEp is back on campus at W&L now, for better or worse, as a Balanced Man chapter. ADPhi, not so much.

You do misrepresent ADPhi's actions at W&L. You are correct that you initiated a chapter where (as I noted in my post) you did legally interpret that the members were free. I do NOT believe that the letter to members expelled them. In fact, I believe it made them alumni while yanking the chapter charter. I can't confirm this 100% but I bet neither can you - neither of us have copies of the letter. However, when you initiated the W&L ADPhi "chapter" you had no house (at a school where all fraternities are housed), no guarantee of campus or IFC recognition, no nothing really.

Let me put it this way: I didn't know anything about ADPhi before you "colonized" at W&L. Now I basically think ADPhi is a joke fraternity that leeches onto other groups' expelled chapters.

You need to have a serious, serious discussion within your fraternity about what this is going to do to your image if you continue this practice.

I'd also like to see your comments on what you think of 70% of the former ADPhi "chapter" then going on to join Phi Kappa Psi.

Thanks.

[tallgreekalum]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

That's nice. As someone fairly close to the situation, I think you somewhat mischaracterize Sigma Phi Epsilon in this scenario as "more concerned with insurance cost than chapter quality." To be honest, I don't totally agree that the charter should have been yanked. Especially given the general goings-on at W&L fraternities, what happened with W&L SPE was fairly minor. However, there were certainly reasons that the charter was yanked, reasons that I believe SigEp could easily cite and would be in line with the risk management standards it publicizes to its members.. Of course, SigEp is back on campus at W&L now, for better or worse, as a Balanced Man chapter. ADPhi, not so much.

You do misrepresent ADPhi's actions at W&L. You are correct that you initiated a chapter where (as I noted in my post) you did legally interpret that the members were free. I do NOT believe that the letter to members expelled them. In fact, I believe it made them alumni while yanking the chapter charter. I can't confirm this 100% but I bet neither can you - neither of us have copies of the letter. However, when you initiated the W&L ADPhi "chapter" you had no house (at a school where all fraternities are housed), no guarantee of campus or IFC recognition, no nothing really.

Let me put it this way: I didn't know anything about ADPhi before you "colonized" at W&L. Now I basically think ADPhi is a joke fraternity that leeches onto other groups' expelled chapters.

You need to have a serious, serious discussion within your fraternity about what this is going to do to your image if you continue this practice.

I'd also like to see your comments on what you think of 70% of the former ADPhi "chapter" then going on to join Phi Kappa Psi.

Thanks.

1. I have seen the letter(several years ago)
2. The former SPE Chapter members approached US.
3. The group knew that school recognition could be an issue
4. the group knew that it wouldn't have an official on campus house, perhaps for a while, and had arranged for an off-campus house.
5. IMHO, SPE looks for any excuse to force their chapters into the "Balanced Man" program- the charter was pulled because they refused.
6. Unlike SPE, we don't force members to stay if they don't wish to. Both ADPhi and the group at W&L entered into this in good faith. When things did not work out well, we weren't going to hold the men against their will.

The other former chapters had been locals for 6 and 15+ years respectively. How long does a group have to remain a local before you wouldn't consider it "leeching"? During the same time we've started six other chapters and affiliates and restarted two chapters.
I'm unclear as to your objection. Is it that you felt the groups are not quality groups, or strictly the process at W&L? Do you feel that the men at W&L were mistreated by ADPhi? Or is it that you didn't respect the group prior to their affiliation with AD?

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by tallgreekalum

1. I have seen the letter(several years ago)
2. The former SPE Chapter members approached US.
3. The group knew that school recognition could be an issue
4. the group knew that it wouldn't have an official on campus house, perhaps for a while, and had arranged for an off-campus house.
5. IMHO, SPE looks for any excuse to force their chapters into the "Balanced Man" program- the charter was pulled because they refused.
6. Unlike SPE, we don't force members to stay if they don't wish to. Both ADPhi and the group at W&L entered into this in good faith. When things did not work out well, we weren't going to hold the men against their will.

The other former chapters had been locals for 6 and 15+ years respectively. How long does a group have to remain a local before you wouldn't consider it "leeching"? During the same time we've started six other chapters and affiliates and restarted two chapters.
I'm unclear as to your objection. Is it that you felt the groups are not quality groups, or strictly the process at W&L? Do you feel that the men at W&L were mistreated by ADPhi? Or is it that you didn't respect the group prior to their affiliation with AD?

I don't how far we should get into this on the boards.

1. I still would want confirmation that the letter EXPELLED the members. I don't recall that it did that, but maybe it did. You saw the letter.

2. I am aware of that.

3. They seemed pretty confident of getting recognition on campus - had quite a bit of hubris, about it, actually. Or at least, that is how they represented it to outsiders.

4. That's true. But the on-campus house was a joke. I should know. I used to hang out there quite a bit! It was in no way comparable to the housing resources the rest of the fraternities had/have and it's sort of ludicrous to try to compare it. They didn't even OWN the house or lease the house in the name of the fraternity. At some schools that might have gone over, but at W&L, where all the fraternities have houses with cooks, meal plans, etc., it just wasn't going to be a competitive or realistic situation. Didn't ADPhi realize that? No freshman guy was going to pledge that house - freshman guys want a place where their entire pledge class will live and eat together sophomore year. That's what the fraternity experience at W&L is ABOUT.

5. That's up for debate. Certainly the former SPE members (if they are indeed "former") hold that view. A lot of other SigEps do nation-wide too. I do maintain that the charges they were dechartered on were fairly minor in the big scheme of things. Especially given all the awful stuff I saw go down at fraternities at W&L. Still - the chapter DID haze. I know. I dated a pledge for his entire pledge period and heard all about the activities and even saw the physical scars.

6. It's nice that you released the guys so they could join Phi Psi, but I still think it's sketchy as hell to have been initiated into THREE NIC FRATERNITIES. Where is the loyalty there? To their credit, a good portion of the members did not end up joining Phi Psi for this kind of reason. With SigEp they felt a betrayal, but not with ADPhi I guess.

As far as leeching, I've seen you promote and brag about this strategy elsewhere on GC. While it may be a good way to add chapters to your fraternity, I really think you really need to evaluate carefully how it will go over on particular campuses. Speaking to the W&L colonization, it was hasty and unplanned, without full evaluation of the reality of the campus situation. Did ADPhi try to ascertain with the school administration whether it could gain recognition? My understanding is that it did not until immediately prior to the vote. ADPhi should have researched and realized that the likelihood of them being recognized was low and also that at campus like W&L an unrecognized fraternity was not going to do well at all. Not to mention the housing stuff I've already mentioned. Frankly, to most of the people I knew on campus, the situation seemed like A) ADPhi was completely desperate and B) the former SPEs were just using ADPhi, a teeny national fraternity, to get what they wanted.

I really hope this evaluation helps you in some way because on campus it was not the attitude of "oh, these are good guys who got screwed over by SPE." It was AT FIRST. Then, there was a shift to "What are these guys thinking, this is a loser plan."

I'm glad ADPhi is pursuing ground-up colonies as well, because of all of these reasons. Frankly, it was apparent that ADPhi did not have the resources other national fraternities did throughout the process, and I think colonizing a chapter in the W&L SPE position highlights this.

I also think you need to consider if some of the allegations and problems other national fraternities had with chapter might be more valid than you think.

As far as quality, I think it's no surprise to say that SPE at W&L was at the bottom of the middle tier or top of the bottom tier. Depending on your point of view. At one time I loved the chapter. I had a nasty breakup with a member there which led to some falling-outs and I quit hanging out there almost completely by my senior year (not to mention I subsequently started dating a guy at a rival fraternity...). I did not feel that the ADPhi process was beneficial to them as a chapter and by the time they joined Phi Psi their social reputation and membership etc. had gone way downhill - although they did kind of save struggling Phi Psi.

I don't feel they were mistreated by ADPhi. Maybe slightly mis-led -but down a path they wanted to follow. If anything, I think they used/mistreated ADPhi.

I guess that's as much as I'll say.