The Hazing Tradition

[bowsandtoes]

Originally Posted by Little32

Everything our chapter does contributes to the national legacy along with the efforts of every other chapter; conversely, the national body shapes in many ways the goals of the chapter. We are all different, but we are all so much more the same, which is why every woman who pledges AKA is my soror, not just the ones who come into the organization via my chapter.

You make good points, but imagine a different scenario from one of our prospectives. You love your chapter and are proud of your national organization. But one year at a national meeting the big brass reveal that the organization is taking a new direction, one of which you might now approve. Your protests are not enough to overrule the decision and nationals continues down a path of which you do not approve. What do you do?

The only real choices you have are to a) secede and go local or b) continue on with nationals, but ignore them for the most part and distance yourselves. We're seeing chapters take option b more and more frequently as various fraternities such as Sig Ep, Lambda Chi, and SAE implement programs to reform chapters. Its happening slowly but I think in the next 20 years you will see a majority of chapters either go local or more likely, be shut down. That, or the nationals will bend to alumni pressure and stop forcing these programs on chapters.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by bowsandtoes

You make good points, but imagine a different scenario from one of our prospectives. You love your chapter and are proud of your national organization. But one year at a national meeting the big brass reveal that the organization is taking a new direction, one of which you might now approve. Your protests are not enough to overrule the decision and nationals continues down a path of which you do not approve. What do you do?

The only real choices you have are to a) secede and go local or b) continue on with nationals, but ignore them for the most part and distance yourselves. We're seeing chapters take option b more and more frequently as various fraternities such as Sig Ep, Lambda Chi, and SAE implement programs to reform chapters. Its happening slowly but I think in the next 20 years you will see a majority of chapters either go local or more likely, be shut down. That, or the nationals will bend to alumni pressure and stop forcing these programs on chapters.

If that is what you really think-OK.

[Little32]

@ bows: I do understand that perspective to an extent (I am young in my organization), and I think that most organizations have this sort of internal conflict happening at any given moment.

I don't, however, think that any chapter in my sorority would withdraw rather than staying and continuing to advocate for change within the org. (Here, I am talking about any sort of change, not just change related to pledging/hazing/MIP.)

I think that there is a fundamental difference in terms of perception of chapter relationship to national (or in our case international is correct) body. There is no Theta Omega chapter without Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. At least that is my understanding.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by bowsandtoes

What do you do?

Undergraduate chapters get over it.

When I was an undergad, I would've never thought it appropriate for a chapter to attempt to override the national organization. One major reason why I joined Delta was because I have love for Delta as a national entity. It is through my chapter that I was able to reach Delta and initially bond with Sorors. However, to remove Delta just because we disagree with something is ridiculous as far as BGLOs in general are concerned. Attempting to become a local would definitely not be received well. LOL. Not at all.

[gee_ess]

In regards to Elephant Walk's take on fraternities at the U of A, I have to say I doubt very seriously any U of A alumna would support going away from their national group. There is too much tradition and name recognition, financial support, etc tied up in those groups. Once SAE chose to disaffiliate with national (just an example) the SAE alums would withdraw support. I don't think SAE wants to lose, for example,the CEO of Alltel's financial support and I can almost guarantee someone like that would not support the break.

Also, on the note of strong southern chapters being pulled. The Sigma Nu chapter at the U of A was strong for many years and after a series of incidents were pulled from campus. They are back now and in a new house, but were definitely pulled. They have a strong and influential alum base but were still pulled - it can happen.

[Kevin]

I'm not sure how influential our chapters at LSU, Mississippi State and Vanderbilt were, but all have been recently booted and recolonized.

Same goes for our Kansas chapter which has been in existence (and was historically a really good house) for a long time. I really can't see alumni bases full of politicians and the leaders of our business, legal and medical fields supporting and contributing to a withdrawal from their national just so their chapter could continue to participate in illegal activities.

I may be off base here, but that whole argument just doesn't sound at all plausible to me.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by gee_ess

In regards to Elephant Walk's take on fraternities at the U of A, I have to say I doubt very seriously any U of A alumna would support going away from their national group. There is too much tradition and name recognition, financial support, etc tied up in those groups. Once SAE chose to disaffiliate with national (just an example) the SAE alums would withdraw support. I don't think SAE wants to lose, for example,the CEO of Alltel's financial support and I can almost guarantee someone like that would not support the break.

You would be very, very surprised with what I know, then. There have been secession feelings within many chapters at UofA. Many don't have the means to do it, but some will and have the alumni supporting them. It will be years and years before it happens, but it is happening. Regardless, I plainly stated that it's not an option on this campus....yet.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

You would be very, very surprised with what I know, then. There have been secession feelings within many chapters at UofA. Many don't have the means to do it, but some will and have the alumni supporting them. It will be years and years before it happens, but it is happening. Regardless, I plainly stated that it's not an option on this campus....yet.

I think we all would be very surprised at what you know about ALL the different chapters at your school.
And just how one person would know everything and anything about chapters not his own.
So, since you put it out there in your own posting, show us.

[bowsandtoes]

Rather than quote anyone I'll just try to give a general reply. The changes I'm talking about for the most part go beyond hazing, alcohol, etc. With Sig Ep the Balanced Man program has completely change the entire structure of chapters. They do things that we fervently do not agree with. However, as you mentioned we are still deeply tied to the history of Sig Ep, both at our school and nationally. In this case, it is nationals that is breaking away from that tradition and history. Ideally, I wouldn't want to break away from nationals or have nationals come down on us, I was just remarking that's the direction things seem to be headed over the past several years.

I also feel like this particular problem doesn't pertain to sororities as much, since much of it stems from the risk management issues that are prevalent w/ fraternities. Many of these programs were designed to combat the negative 'frat boy' stereotype, one that we all know is completely false and unfounded in the first place.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by bowsandtoes

I also feel like this particular problem doesn't pertain to sororities as much, since much of it stems from the risk management issues that are prevalent w/ fraternities. Many of these programs were designed to combat the negative 'frat boy' stereotype, one that we all know is completely false and unfounded in the first place.

But one that gets continued by the deeds, words, activities and actions of a few.

[bowsandtoes]

Originally Posted by jon1856

But one that gets continued by the deeds, words, activities and actions of a few.

Perhaps, but I don't see a few bad apples as justification to start hacking off branches.







By the way, that metaphor worked perfect.

[gee_ess]

Originally Posted by bowsandtoes
I also feel like this particular problem doesn't pertain to sororities as much, since much of it stems from the risk management issues that are prevalent w/ fraternities. Many of these programs were designed to combat the negative 'frat boy' stereotype, one that we all know is completely false and unfounded in the first place.


From a sorority standpoint, I do think that we can relate to this...National(along with panhellenic) made many, many changes in procedures, rituals, etc several years back (to combat hazing,reduce chapter liability, focus on philanthropy, move away from the Barbie image). And there was quite a bit of backlash. Older members reacted and "rebelled" against the changes (read some of the posts on BAck in the Day thread posted elsewhere). Women felt that "they" were telling us what and how to run the chapters.
By now, 2008, those changes are firmly implemented and chapters are moving in the direction national is pointing. It sounds like this is what fraternities are feeling...and maybe some alumna are not as supportive (at some chapters) as the sorority advisors, etc were in regards to this because there seems to be fewer adults who interact with fraternitiy chapters than sororities? I can totally understand both sides and have to say (that with a few exceptions) the changes were for the better and npc sororities are stronger and better than ever as a result.

EW - We may have to agree to disagree, I would bet the farm that none of the strong houses at U of A ever leaves their national group willingly... BTW- are you from Arkansas originally or from out of state?

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by gee_ess

EW - We may have to agree to disagree, I would bet the farm that none of the strong houses at U of A ever leaves their national group willingly... BTW- are you from Arkansas originally or from out of state?

From here. Sort of near where you grew up, actually (before you think I'm creepy you said you were from the Heights in West Little Rock in a previous post)

[33girl]

Originally Posted by gee_ess

From a sorority standpoint, I do think that we can relate to this...National(along with panhellenic) made many, many changes in procedures, rituals, etc several years back (to combat hazing,reduce chapter liability, focus on philanthropy, move away from the Barbie image). And there was quite a bit of backlash. Older members reacted and "rebelled" against the changes (read some of the posts on BAck in the Day thread posted elsewhere). Women felt that "they" were telling us what and how to run the chapters.
By now, 2008, those changes are firmly implemented and chapters are moving in the direction national is pointing.

Weeeellllll.....

I don't think that the "big chapters who bring lots of $$ into nationals get away with more" concept is entirely a fraternity concept, I'll put it that way.

Plus I don't think I've ever heard any national say "move away from the Barbie image." If that's the image that keeps your chapter bringing in members and $$, you're not going to have a chapter consultant come in and tell you to pledge a bunch of butter-face girls.

[gee_ess]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Weeeellllll.....

I don't think that the "big chapters who bring lots of $$ into nationals get away with more" concept is entirely a fraternity concept, I'll put it that way.

Plus I don't think I've ever heard any national say "move away from the Barbie image." If that's the image that keeps your chapter bringing in members and $$, you're not going to have a chapter consultant come in and tell you to pledge a bunch of butter-face girls.

Nor do I think that any national said literally, "let's move away from the Barbie image." I was trying to make the point that the emphasis on leadership, post college activities, philanthropy, etc (things that we have always had as a part of our heritage) were given more of a front seat in the past decade to give credence to the sorority experience.

I was really just trying to say, that it seems the fraternities are experiencing what sororities experienced some 15 - 20(?) years ago, and those of us who remember those changes, remember that chapters struggled with the feeling of heavy handedness -no matter how well intentioned, BUT it was the right move to make.