Michigan voters ban affirmative action

[AKA_Monet]

I have no idea where this discussion is going. So, I am refocussing it.

People have problems, period.

Folks cannot get along...

Forty years ago, there were laws on the books in several states that prohibited the interaction between various groups. The United States government allowed it to happen. Through the efforts of numerous people (we all know who they are), it changed.

The reason why people are unable or unwilling or incapable of improving their live circumstances is mainly due to poverty. I just read that in a health journal. Poverty is not only economic but also occurs in one's mind...

Why is there an increase risk of becoming infected with HIV for African American women in the United States?

Some folks could not give a rat's ass about that statistic.

Here is why everyone should:

Because it is a public health issue. PUBLIC HEALTH. Meaning, that increased infection rates>means increased cost to treat>means increased HIV transmission rates>means increased opportunistic infectious (e.g. non-antibiotic treatable Tuberculosis)>means increased innocent other people becoming sick...

Hey, maybe it's cool for a "First World Country" like the United States to have >30,000 died due to untreated HIV infections in county hospitals.

Maybe it's cool, now, to see folks suffer. I know that kids these days are waaay too much into S&M.

But, I did not grow up like that and I think it is wrong to let "any of the least of these suffer..."

Besides, I would rather be part of a solution than part of the problem. That's me.

Maybe that is not how some of you all kids today think... Or care for that matter.

So us old GC'ers, just say, "kids today"...

Shinerbock, you are in law school, you know why "we" make laws. Why were the antiquated "Tuberculosis Laws" made?

DSTChaos, I know that some folks will NEVER tell me their real reason. Both you and I know why And no, I am not into "forcing" them to tell me. I want to see "their logic", how they go to "their conclusions". Both you and I know most of it is BS. But I enjoy seeing them walk thru it... I have to have some thrills in my life This is one of them... I love it, personally. Classic.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

DSTChaos, I know that some folks will NEVER tell me their real reason. Both you and I know why And no, I am not into "forcing" them to tell me. I want to see "their logic", how they go to "their conclusions". Both you and I know most of it is BS. But I enjoy seeing them walk thru it... I have to have some thrills in my life This is one of them... I love it, personally. Classic.

SisterGreek, I know when people don't know. I think folks like shinerbock actually do know and can articulate it quite well. It doesn't mean that I'll agree with everything they say, but maybe some things. But when I ask questions, I try to avoid patronizing rhetoricals unless I'm just reminding them that they don't know. If I'm really trying to open their eyes to something I know they don't realize or understand, I forego the pissing match and just share the info. Or I open the discussion to receive their viewpoints without hanging on every word waiting to shoot them down.

[shinerbock]

Well, I'll sum my views up on this....

increased government involvement=decreased personal responsibility

Some advances are a blessing and a burden. For example, am I glad we don't have to fight wars with heavy human casualties anymore? Of course. Do I think it has created a society without appreciation for sacrifice or a sense of responsibility? Yes.

Now, back to Contracts.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Well, I'll sum my views up on this....

increased government involvement=decreased personal responsibility

Some advances are a blessing and a burden. For example, am I glad we don't have to fight wars with heavy human casualties anymore? Of course. Do I think it has created a society without appreciation for sacrifice or a sense of responsibility? Yes.

Now, back to Contracts.

Then, why pay taxes??? That's beside the point.

For every war, there are heavy human casualties. That is the nature of war. That is why a "stategy" for minimizing before going to war is important. Without on, the war lingers and there is a catastrophic death toll.

Kids these days barely have "work ethic". Their "modelers" were poor. But then many of their "models" may have been Vietnam Vets or families of Vets who were MIA or POW...

At least that's what happened in my Uncle's family where he was a marine and did 2 tours in 'Nam.

[shinerbock]

AKA, well, I can only go on my own experience. Vietnam was quite a shift in the way America treats war, unfortunately. i'm simply saying that it seems my father's generation had a lot more of the "i'm gonna do whatever I have to to make sure my kids have ________," moreso than this generation.

I don't want to get off on a tangent, but I think part of it is we don't have a clear enemy. Granted, 9/11, Cold War, World Wars, you saw a lot of unity because we were bonded together for something and against something we felt to be threatening us. Its a much more complicated world now, we're not even sure we like our own country (some of us). Alright, this thread is getting ridiculous.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

AKA, well, I can only go on my own experience. Vietnam was quite a shift in the way America treats war, unfortunately. i'm simply saying that it seems my father's generation had a lot more of the "i'm gonna do whatever I have to to make sure my kids have ________," moreso than this generation.

I don't want to get off on a tangent, but I think part of it is we don't have a clear enemy. Granted, 9/11, Cold War, World Wars, you saw a lot of unity because we were bonded together for something and against something we felt to be threatening us. Its a much more complicated world now, we're not even sure we like our own country (some of us). Alright, this thread is getting ridiculous.

Your comments are tangential to the actual discussion. Just so you know. But you bring up a good point, in that you said, "my father's generation [said] 'I'm gonna do whatever [it takes] to make sure my kids have ______'" That is the same thing my folks thought, too. Most GCers parent's here thought that. That is why most of us are college-educated and can have these discussions...

Some folks in this current generation, which is yours and mine (Gen X, Y, Millenial), do not think that we need to "do" whatever it takes. It often looks like "wanting a handout or freebie". And is some cases it actually is. But in numerous other cases it more about folks not knowing that there ARE options in life. In fact, there are quite of few of us here of GC that have be excluded, overtly. HAYLE, if you walk one hour in my shoes, they'd hurt your feet... And it isn't the down-trodden suffering that my parents had. It is that "mind-game crap" that eats at your soul...

The problem then becomes an insidious, institutionalized perpetual one.

As far as a common enemy, well, that's what the 60's and 70's protesters were saying... Make LOVE, not War... Why fight when you don't have to?

Do I agree with that ideology? Not necessarily. I'm with you, you can't have the Jonger lightin' off sticks...

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

. . . but I'm just tired of the "the government owes me" attitude. If anything, you owe the country, we all do.

Originally Posted by shinerbock

unfortunately. i'm simply saying that it seems my father's generation had a lot more of the "i'm gonna do whatever I have to to make sure my kids have ________," moreso than this generation.

Okay, since we've veered way off on a tangent, I think that for a disturbingly large portion of the American population, lower, middle and upper class in particular, the "I am owed" attitude is all too prevelant. Whether it's the government that owes me or the parents that have always given me every little thing I've wanted, or simply society in general, I think the extent to which America has become a culture of the "entitled" extends far, far beyond "the government owes me."

It's nothing particularly new. I remember being told early on by my parents that familiy wealth tends to run in three generation cycles -- the first generation amasses it, the second maintains it, and the third goes through it. But it certainly seems more widespread than ever before.

[shinerbock]

Hey kids, I'm not the only one on a tangent, you people are steering us too...just so you know. But I'm with you Mystic, that attitude isn't just the lower class, although their entitlement claims generally are more demanding of the government. The upper classes tend to think society as a whole owes them something. Theres a difference between having a dad who can get you into (and out of) things, and thinking the world should cater to your every need.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Hey kids, I'm not the only one on a tangent, you people are steering us too...just so you know. .

Oh, we're all equally guilty.

Theres a difference between having a dad who can get you into (and out of) things, and thinking the world should cater to your every need.

True. But all too often, I fear, having dad get you into and out of things and grant your every desire teaches you that the world should cater to your every need.

[shinerbock]

Mystic, I don't know. To be honest, just about all my friends have somebody of some importance that they know on a first name basis, and you really don't see much of it. I mean, we'll make jokes like "do you know who my father is," but there's really not any sense of entitlement. Good parenting in a good environment can keep well-off kids from straying from their roots.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Good parenting in a good environment can keep well-off kids from straying from their roots.

I agree completely. I don't consider spoiling your kids and giving them everything they want good parenting, however.

I started seeing it more when I had kids of my own (there is a reason that they called us the "Me Generation"), but growing up I did see it with friends as well. Sometimes it's subtle, but it's there more often than I like to see.

[shinerbock]

I hate using the term "old money," but there really is a difference. Being from metro-Atlanta, perhaps the most "new-money" place in the world, the kids from the different families are miles apart. For any Alabama people, think Hoover v. Mountain Brook.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I hate using the term "old money," but there really is a difference. Being from metro-Atlanta, perhaps the most "new-money" place in the world, the kids from the different families are miles apart. For any Alabama people, think Hoover v. Mountain Brook.

I am not that much into Alabama, so I don't know about those areas. I am sure someone will be happy to "school me"...

I am from California, but I did attend Spelman in Atlanta during the late 80's, so I did see the differences from Cobb and Tucker Counties to Tate and Forsyth Counties.

San Diego, California was not THAT overtly segregated from the haves and the have-nots in terms of absolutely who could not live in certain communities. That had slowly died out when all the servicemen were being shipped off to Vietnam then came home in body bags...

But we have the Uber-Riche in La Jolla, Del Mar, Torrey Pines, Solana Beach, Rancho Santa Fe (where them Hale-Bopp folks killed themselves), and Olivehain. Some in Fallbrook and Escondido. I am talking beyond Mansions sitting on the cliff overlooking the Pacific Ocean with your own private beach--like Black's Beach (it's a beach where clothing is optional).

Then we have the dirt poor areas that USED to be off Commercial Street--8 blocks outside of downtown. But now that's changed ever since Petco Stadium was built.

Hayle, it was getting so expensive in San Diego, that you couldn't own a Fridgedaire Box on asphalt in the ghetto... That's why I left.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I hate using the term "old money," but there really is a difference. Being from metro-Atlanta, perhaps the most "new-money" place in the world, the kids from the different families are miles apart. For any Alabama people, think Hoover v. Mountain Brook.

I agree.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

I agree.

Me too.