Minimum Wage

[shinerbock]

Are you kidding? Now the Bush administration is the cause of rising milk prices, but he's obviously not the cause of job growth...This is ridiculous.

Minimum wage kills small business. You can't have it both ways. People should work for the MARKET VALUE of their services. In addition, its obviously wrong to say that all people deserve more than the current minimum wage. If you don't believe me, lets go to Wendy's and then we'll decide.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by valkyrie

I don't think this is true. There is a large homeless population in Denver -- I would have a very hard time believing that they're hard pressed to be sleeping in parking lots or lined up around the shelters every night.

You're well aware I'm sure that the homeless population is well outside the scope of the minimum wage debate. Those are people who don't work at all (perhaps with an exception here and there), and many if not most haven't worked in a long time.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by kstar

I believe that you shouldn't be able to state that min. wage shouldn't be raised until you either have to live on it, or know people who do. You are so lucky that you don't have to sully your hands with us lower classed people. I don't know how in the world you went to a public school and didn't interact with people of a lower class than you.

Okay, I get it, here's where I argue my personal credentials. I went to Bishop McGuinness (in north-central OKC) for three years. I did go to public school for one year, however, at Edmond North, there really weren't any poor people, or if there were, I never knew any. I was in all of the AP type classes there for the year I went, and that was only for a half-day. The other half of the day I spent at the local University on concurrent enrollment.

That's where your assumptions stop being correct though.

Starting at age 16, I got my first job at RadioShack. I worked there all the way through HS and college. The pay there is minimum wage OR commission (whichever check was higher). I typically earned $10-$20/hr. The average wage there, however, was a lot lower. Some of my coworkers actually did make it on minimum wage. One of them had a family of 8 and worked 3 jobs. For most of my "career" there, I worked in Penn Square Mall (not too many poor people shop there). They closed that store though, and I ended up shifting between 23rd and Penn, 23rd and Meridian, and the Rockwell & NW Expressway stores. At those places, many of my customers were unemployed, many were physically/mentally impaired, many were low wage earners, etc. (we weren't in the best part of town). Most of my coworkers were college dropouts/burnouts, alcoholics, addicts, etc.

I look at those folks though, and I realize that they were what they were because they made stupid choices throughout life -- their worth at the time? Minimum wage or commission, whichever was higher. If they're anyone's victims, then they are their own victims.

So kstar, I appreciate the fact that you think I'm elite. Maybe I am. As for my experience with low-wage earners, it's not exactly non-existant. I just don't feel sorry for people who are lazy.

Wait staff in OK makes 2.13 an hour. Nice try though. Both Wal-Marts in Norman pay 5.15 and hour, plus the bare minimum of benefits. Again, nice try though. Norman Regional Hospital's kitchen positions and janitorial staff make 5.15 an hour. Again, nice try.

Waitstaff make $2.13 plus tips. I had dinner with my parents the other night. Our ticket was probably around $150-$200. Our waitress received a tip which ended up being a little over 50%. $2.13/hr? Maybe that's what her income taxes show, but it sure as heck ain't reality.

As far as Wal-Mart, Norman Regional, etc. go, people choose to work there. They can't work anywhere else, $5.15 is what they're worth. If they were paid more, prices at Wal-Mart and the hospital would be higher. Do they have a roof over their heads? Yup. Food on the table? Check. Plasma screen TV? Probably not.

How are these people supposed to improve their worth if they aren't even paid enough to live on?

People do it every day. They get a better job, they go back to school, take out student loans, they go to job corps, etc. A client we're representing right now operates a restaurant which netted him over $1million in receipts last year. He came to this country from Iran with about $2000 to his name, and no real job skills. The guy bussed tables, did manual labor, etc., and worked his way to the top. Many people who are successful today have similar stories. Being poor is not an excuse for staying poor. Being lazy or stupid is though.

[AlphaFrog]

Do you have a reading-comprehension problem??? I believe we've been through this, but here it is again.

Originally Posted by kstar

Wait staff in OK makes 2.13 an hour.

PLUS TIPS.

Originally Posted by kstar

Both Wal-Marts in Norman pay 5.15 and hour, plus the bare minimum of benefits.

Every Wal-Mart from Alaska to Florida MUST offer their workers the SAME benefits. Wal-Mart benefits are pretty decent for the type of work.

Originally Posted by kstar

How are these people supposed to improve their worth if they aren't even paid enough to live on?

Ok, so let's raise min. wage. They're still going to be making min. wage, and the prices on everything are going to go up. Now you've got those who were making min. wage in the EXACT same postion as they were before, only now, instead of making $5.15/hr and paying $500 in rent and $2 for a loaf of bread, they're now making $6/hr and paying $650 in rent and $3.50 for a loaf of bread, and now those who were barely making it before at $8/hr are struggling too.

Oh, and DA...raising min. wage is going to hurt your daughter more then help her. If she needs assistance, that's what it's there for. It's not there for people to live on for the rest of their lives because they don't want to work, it's there to help out when you find yourself in a postion where ends aren't meeting.

And you're right, there are people making less then min. wage, but chances are, they aren't supporting a family, and raising min. wage isn't going to help them either if they're already working illegally.

[ISUKappa]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but with regards to waitstaff, I always understood if you did not make enough in tips per pay period to equal minimum wage, the restaurant is supposed to make up the difference.

I've worked four different waitressing jobs in my life and not once did I ever not make minimum wage with tips. And these weren't all big fancy, schmancy restaurants. My first job (at age 14) was at a local, small-town restaurant where some nights I was happy to walk out with $10 in tips, but our Sunday Brunch more than made up for those nights. And we ALWAYS claimed our tips on taxes. Always.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by ISUKappa

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but with regards to waitstaff, I always understood if you did not make enough in tips per pay period to equal minimum wage, the restaurant is supposed to make up the difference.

That is absolutly, 100% correct.

I've waitressed in a small town (13,000 population) diner, and I AVERAGED $10/hour. Including the nights when I went home with $10 all night on a slow night.

Hell, I worked at Waffle House as an in-between jobs-job (scariest month of my life, never been happier to quit a job) and I averaged about $9/hr.

[PM_Mama00]

I've seen waitstaff leave a shift with maybe min. wage in tips, but I've also seen them leave with way more than min. wage. Either way, they are content cuz they have a job. Sometimes it's good, and sometimes it's better.

Also... maybe it's just Michigan, but there is a min. wage for waitstaff and it's $2something.

[DeltAlum]

We have to get it out of our heads that just because we want it, we're entitled to it. That's simply not how this world works.

Of course it isn't -- but it is a huge stereotype on your part to think that the poor assume that they're "entitled" to anything. Many of them are working very hard at simple survival.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

Of course it isn't -- but it is a huge stereotype on your part to think that the poor assume that they're "entitled" to anything. Many of them are working very hard at simple survival.

I'm talking about Americans in general. In this thread, we aren't talking about survival, we're talking about quality of life/luxury. Anyone can survive in the U.S. but they might just not get what the want. Our issue with entitlement is far reaching. It's why we are such a lawsuit-happy society.

I'm currently in the process of figuring out how I'm going to keep myself housed with my rate of pay, which is pretty generous. My problem is that I have to be concerned with my appearance, health and reliable transportation as I work in a professional environment. If I were a full-time retail employee (as I've been in the past), I wouldn't require quite as much money to survive.

Currently, I'm looking at about $150 over budget each week (my fall calculation which begins in September when I get married) and I'm always looking at ways to shave off some expenses. My problem is that housing costs in my area are astronomical, even for ant-infested dungeon apartments. I also have to deal with gas prices in the $3.25+ range.

I'm trying to figure out how to cover all my expenses (two cars, rent, food, utilities, tithing, etc.) on my salary until my soon-to-be husband is able to find employment in this area. The public transportation in this area is fair at best or else I would be all over it.

I'm a very frugal person. Most of what I own came in the form of gifts. I simply don't buy things for myself that aren't absolutely necessary. I won't buy things until I have disposable cash above and beyond my minimum savings requirements.

I've worked with many, many people with many, many income levels on budgeting and meeting goals (debt payment, savings, etc.) Even people on the lower end of the pay scale can be healthy and happy, although it might mean that they have to live in a rundown building and eat the same food day after day until they can get control of their finances. Like I said, it's not an issue of survival. It's an issue of what people want.

By the way, the sole purpose of my career is matching people with jobs. I go out and find a job and then act as an advocate in the matching process. In fact, citizens have access to FREE training (in-office or with our partners) to help them upgrade their career levels. Offices like mine exist in nearly every, if not every, county in the U.S. as a result of a federal initiative. I'm very aware of what's happening, at least in my area, in the job market and what types of jobs adults are getting in my county. We serve more than 40% of the unemployed citizens in the county and we're constantly trying to reach the other 60%.

[valkyrie]

Originally Posted by ktsnake

You're well aware I'm sure that the homeless population is well outside the scope of the minimum wage debate. Those are people who don't work at all (perhaps with an exception here and there), and many if not most haven't worked in a long time.

Yeah, homes, I am aware. I was responding to this:

you'd be HARD PRESSED to go without a roof over your head, food in your belly

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by valkyrie

Yeah, homes, I am aware. I was responding to this:

you'd be HARD PRESSED to go without a roof over your head, food in your belly

True -- those who are homeless and of able mind and body are almost always homeless by choice, or by addiction (which is a form of choice).

[RU OX Alum]

Addiction's not a form of choice, its a form of disease. And no one who is addicted is of sound mind. But that is a different conversation.

As to the topic at hand: most of the homeless people around here are homeless by circumstance, and the rest seem a bit off mentaly. I read that we had bad homeless rates around here (metro rva) but that most people didn't stay homeless very long, which I guess is good.


As to whether the minimum wage should be raised? Yeah, but I don't know by how much, and I don't know how much good it will do, but I think probably some. I don't really care if some businesses suffer, because those businesses don't care if some people suffer. I fail to see how/why an orginization of private individuals is more important than a single individual. Because there are more of them?

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

I don't really care if some businesses suffer, because those businesses don't care if some people suffer. I fail to see how/why an orginization of private individuals is more important than a single individual. Because there are more of them?

This has been addressed already but, again, if the business suffers, its employees suffer. If a business dies, the employees are laid off and have no money; whereas, if the business flourishes, the employees have their job and their money.

Why do employers owe us anything more than what has been agreed upon?

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

I don't really care if some businesses suffer, because those businesses don't care if some people suffer. I fail to see how/why an orginization of private individuals is more important than a single individual. Because there are more of them?

If the businesses suffer, they could close down, thus putting EVERYONE in the company out of a job. That's not minimum wage, that's no wage at all.

Plus, do you really want to say that every business that pays minimum wage lacks compassion? That seems like an awfully broad brush to use in painting a situation.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

Addiction's not a form of choice, its a form of disease. And no one who is addicted is of sound mind. But that is a different conversation.

BS. Addicts go cold turkey every day, and remain sober for their entire lives. It's a form of choice, and to say otherwise is just a pathetic excuse as to why to remain addicted.

As to the topic at hand: most of the homeless people around here are homeless by circumstance, and the rest seem a bit off mentaly. I read that we had bad homeless rates around here (metro rva) but that most people didn't stay homeless very long, which I guess is good.

There are programs and services which they can (or could have) taken advantage of. They could have availed themselves of minimum wage jobs and worked their way up. Sure, they're homeless by circumstance... are you saying that they have no responsibility for their own life's circumstances? If not, who does?

As to whether the minimum wage should be raised? Yeah, but I don't know by how much, and I don't know how much good it will do, but I think probably some. I don't really care if some businesses suffer, because those businesses don't care if some people suffer.

Why should businesses care? Businesses are in existance for the owner to make money. If a poor person doesn't like working for a business, they can start their own. How do you think immigrants come to this country with pracitically nothing, and start these restaurants, dry cleaners, convenience stores, etc.?

I fail to see how/why an orginization of private individuals is more important than a single individual. Because there are more of them?

Nope -- because the individual has the free choice to work for a certain organization. The organization selects the individual, and pays them a wage commesurate with the value taht the organization assigns to that person. If the person doesn't think that the wage is high enough, they look for a different job. If, however, the business and the individual agree on a wage, and that happens to be $5.15/hr., then that's what the parties agree to. Why do you get to step in and say that this wage is not alright? You're not even a party to the transaction.