Israel at War?

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Is the Isreali army using new chemical weapons in Gaza?

riiiiiight.... with the scrutiny that Israel's assault is under, and the many news groups out there - only the Palestinian News Network manages to scoop this story?

Anyways as to this alleged "weapon" being used - I also call BS on it. Sorry but the only thing capable of causing burns from the "inside out" and "distorting tissue" would be something along the lines of a microwave or high burst radiation (to have an immediate effect)... and last I checked microwaves don't come in bomb form, and high intensity/burst radiation would immediately show on an x-ray...

For shame _Opi_ to fall for such amatuerish and sloppy propaganda obviously aimed at the already convinced...


Anyways on to your other article - while they cite the Geneva Convention which follows:

No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.
Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.

They also fail to point out that it is specific in it's application of when this applies; ie. against an occupied civilian population, or attacks specifically directed at terror or intimidation with no strategic/tactical military application... and so far Israel hasn't violated this as far as I can see from news sources.

If they are refering to the broader application under against the collective punishment of enemy civilian populations in times of conflict under 3rd Protocol (1977) then it doesn't matter as none of the combatants (or even possible combatants in the Middle East) have signed onto that protocol.... in fact very few countries have (ie. the UK and US haven't)

[Tom Earp]

Yes, and while this may be true, temperance should be used.

Now that I have said that, who is not to be harmed in an armed conflict and who should be immune? Who helps the attackers and who doesnt?

There is little work that a Bomb doesnt do to The Bad Guys that it doesnt do to the innocent. Then the innocent are presented as being persecuted only.

So, then let them who do not point out the bad guys be implicated too? Hasnt that been the way of military incursions?

All one has to do is look at Iraq. Who is getting killed at a greater rate?

They are afraid to point out the baddies, they are afraid of getting killed. Well, what is happening there now?

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by RACooper

riiiiiight.... with the scrutiny that Israel's assault is under, and the many news groups out there - only the Palestinian News Network manages to scoop this story?

Anyways as to this alleged "weapon" being used - I also call BS on it. Sorry but the only thing capable of causing burns from the "inside out" and "distorting tissue" would be something along the lines of a microwave or high burst radiation (to have an immediate effect)... and last I checked microwaves don't come in bomb form, and high intensity/burst radiation would immediately show on an x-ray...

For shame _Opi_ to fall for such amatuerish and sloppy propaganda obviously aimed at the already convinced...


Anyways on to your other article - while they cite the Geneva Convention which follows:

They also fail to point out that it is specific in it's application of when this applies; ie. against an occupied civilian population, or attacks specifically directed at terror or intimidation with no strategic/tactical military application... and so far Israel hasn't violated this as far as I can see from news sources.

If they are refering to the broader application under against the collective punishment of enemy civilian populations in times of conflict under 3rd Protocol (1977) then it doesn't matter as none of the combatants (or even possible combatants in the Middle East) have signed onto that protocol.... in fact very few countries have (ie. the UK and US haven't)

What you said may very well be the truth, as I have no weapon knowledge background. However, as you will notice from my post, I posed a question. I did not say anything about its validity. I saw the article and passed it on. However, I do wonder if there is validity to it.

As for propoganda, there's many propoganda being perpetrated from both sides :-) We always get reports from the Israel news media here, don't we not?

As to the application of the Geneva convention to this conflict, are you saying because they have a "strategic military planning", that it justifies what their doing in Lebanon/Gaza? You don't think their terrorizing or punishing the civilians , rather than Hizbullah?

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by _Opi_

What you said may very well be the truth, as I have no weapon knowledge background. However, as you will notice from my post, I posed a question. I did not say anything about its validity. I saw the article and passed it on. However, I do wonder if there is validity to it.

As for propoganda, there's many propoganda being perpetrated from both sides :-) We always get reports from the Israel news media here, don't we not?

As to the application of the Geneva convention to this conflict, are you saying because they have a "strategic military planning", that it justifies what their doing in Lebanon/Gaza? You don't think their terrorizing or punishing the civilians , rather than Hizbullah?

No it isn't a "May..be the truth". It is the truth.

You posted a BS article so you believe in the validity and are aiding in spreading lies. There is ZERO validity to that.

What "propoganda" is being spread from both sides? I'd love to know what the Israelis propoganda is.

Again Opi let me break it down for you.

Gaza:
1) Israel is not in the area because of a pussy, and the Israelis get attacked without justification.
2) Israel elects a pussy peace government and the Palestinians choose a terrorist government.
3) Israel is attacked daily by rockets and has its citizens kidnapped.
4) Palestinians gave the terrorists power and keep them in power.
5) At any point the Gazans can stop firing rockets and release the soldier.
6) The Gazans are determining that they are fine with the consequences.
7) It is Syria and Iran that pushed to make sure that Hamas didn't return the soldier.

Lebanon:
1) Hezbollah is a part of the government.
2) Hezbollah controls the entire Southern border of Lebanon.
3) No Lebanese national troops were moved into the South.
4) Hezbollah, a part of the government, attacked Israel. Hence Lebanon started a war.
5) It is Iran and Syria that provide support to Hezbollah.
6) Given that you know nothing about the civil war, I'm sure you don't know that the Southern Beirut neighborhoods are Hezbollah members and supporters.
7) Israel did not indiscriminately attack civilians. The Lebanese did.
8) Israel destroyed an airport, a main highway, Hezbollah buildings, and blocked all the sea ports so that they can't move the kidnapped Israeli into Iran.
9) At any point Hezbollah can move away from the South, Lebanon can put national troops there, and the Israeli soldiers can be returned.
10) There is no justification to Hezbollah or Lebanon doing this. ISRAEL HAS NO OCCUPYING FORCES IN LEBANON AS CERTIFIED BY THE UNITED NATIONS.
11) Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, and many gulf states BLAME LEBANON AND HEZBOLLAH AS WELL AS IRAN AND SYRIA.

So tell us what the propoganda is. I would love to know what it is. Instead of reading Arab news that is fully fabricated, read something with a bit more truth to it.

-Rudey

[Rudey]

"These acts will pull the whole region back to years ago, and we cannot simply accept them," Saudi al-Faisal told his counterparts.

Supporting his stance were representatives of Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq, the Palestinian Authority, the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain, delegates said on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the talks.

-Rudey
--But I'm sure France and Opi are fine with Hezbollah and Lebanon attacking Israel because they read fabricated news articles

[Tom Earp]

Amazing how little people know of that region isnt it?

The many Arab Countries have Pledged to have Isreal eradicated from the Region. They may not profess this now, but they did for years.

They ahd better figure out a way to live in peace with each other NO DAMN matter what single God They each beleive in!

Hell, The Arabs cant even get along!

Just Check Iraq!

Only word I can use is MORONs! Let Me Add, STFing Morons!

[_Opi_]

Originally Posted by Rudey

"These acts will pull the whole region back to years ago, and we cannot simply accept them," Saudi al-Faisal told his counterparts.

Supporting his stance were representatives of Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq, the Palestinian Authority, the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain, delegates said on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the talks.

-Rudey
--But I'm sure France and Opi are fine with Hezbollah and Lebanon attacking Israel because they read fabricated news articles

Don't get your panties in a bunch, Rudey. I know how passionate you can get about these topics.

Let me make myself clear, I read articles from many sources keeping in mind that both medias from either side has their own interests/agenda.

As for "reading fabricated news articles", are you talking about the one about the doctor speculating if Israel is using new weaponry? This isn't so far-fetched, and it's definately not the first time Israel has used chemical weapons in Gaza. You can google that if you wish.

Yes, I concede with France and Russia on the single issue of EXCESSIVE RESPONSE to a kidnapping of three soldiers. Does that make me pro-france and Hezbollah? What kind of logic is that. lol

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Don't get your panties in a bunch, Rudey. I know how passionate you can get about these topics.

Let me make myself clear, I read articles from many sources keeping in mind that both medias from either side has their own interests/agenda.

As for "reading fabricated news articles", are you talking about the one about the doctor speculating if Israel is using new weaponry? This isn't so far-fetched, and it's definately not the first time Israel has used chemical weapons in Gaza. You can google that if you wish.

Yes, I concede with France and Russia on the single issue of EXCESSIVE RESPONSE to a kidnapping of three soldiers. Does that make me pro-france and Hezbollah? What kind of logic is that. lol

You gotta be joking.

Again, I ask you to show me this Israeli propoganda you talk about that's in the main news. You don't have any but claim there is some.

You read fake news. It's that simple. It doesn't make you more educated but ignorant. Just like the people that think Elvis is alive and there are aliens and read websites on those topics with fabricated research, you do the same.

And if you want to post something, post it but don't tell me to google anything. So far I've broken everything down for you very simply and you can't respond to those things (law school should prepare you for that no?).

-Rudey
--Pro-France and Pro-Hezbollah? Wow someone has trouble with basic comprehension.

[RACooper]

Hmmm... it seems to be ratcheting up still without much being done to mitigate the violence...

Personally I'm worried about the hardening of the Israeli public opinion towards peace and the increasing acceptance of force as the first response. What is also very worrisome is the increasing chance that the Lebanese government will fall and Hezbollah will sieze power.

In other news it has been reported that 5 Canadians were killed in todays air strikes on Lebanon ... and of course our asshat Conservative government is out of touch with reality when it comes to helping citizens ~ Peter Mckay telling them to check the "website" for info on how to get out of Lebanon - he might be forgetting that internet access isn't really all that easy to get at in a warzone... perhaps they should actually get about doing something that parroting Bush's policies and statements.

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Hmmm... it seems to be ratcheting up still without much being done to mitigate the violence...

Personally I'm worried about the hardening of the Israeli public opinion towards peace and the increasing acceptance of force as the first response. What is also very worrisome is the increasing chance that the Lebanese government will fall and Hezbollah will sieze power.

In other news it has been reported that 5 Canadians were killed in todays air strikes on Lebanon

Rob the Lebanese military provided precise info on an Israeli ship to Hezbollah in their attack. Hezbollah has a large number of seats in the Parliament and has the power of patrolling the South. The government is 98% Hezbollah, 1% Syria, 1% Iran. If it crumbled what would change?

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Rudey

Rob the Lebanese military provided precise info on an Israeli ship to Hezbollah in their attack. Hezbollah has a large number of seats in the Parliament and has the power of patrolling the South. The government is 98% Hezbollah, 1% Syria, 1% Iran. If it crumbled what would change?

-Rudey

Gee I'm shocked that the Lebanese military provided info to help attack an Israeli ship I'd being doing all I could to help strike back at someone bombing me... it's human nature to want to strike back at someone hitting you.

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Gee I'm shocked that the Lebanese military provided info to help attack an Israeli ship I'd being doing all I could to help strike back at someone bombing me... it's human nature to want to strike back at someone hitting you.

It's pretty clear that Lebanon started a war with Israel.

They hit Israel.

Israel hit back.

So let's not pretend that the Lebanese government had nothing to do with starting or continuing a war with Israel or pretend that its dissolution would change anything.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Rudey

It's pretty clear that Lebanon started a war with Israel.

They hit Israel.

Israel hit back.

So let's not pretend that the Lebanese government had nothing to do with starting or continuing a war with Israel or pretend that its dissolution would change anything.

-Rudey

No... it's pretty clear that Hezbollah started this particular conflict.

Hezbollah attacks and kills Israeli soldiers, and kidnaps 2.

Israel retaliates against Lebanon as a whole.

Unlike you I'm more than capable of looking beyond the simplistic black and white, and see that the Lebanese government wouldn't have been involved - simply because it would further risk their already tenuous position, it would further risk giving Hezbollah more public/political power, and finally because the government subsits from grafts on the newly booming tourist business I can't see them willing to risk that lucrative skimming.

Now as for the Israeli demands... well they are pretty f*cking ludicrous right now - demanding that Lebanon disarm Hezbollah... how they hell is the Lebanese government and military supposed to disarm them in the middle of a warzone? Face it the hawks were looking for an excuse to flex some military muscle and they leaped on this as an excuse to bombard Lebanon once again...

[Rudey]

Hezbollah occupies 23 seats in the Parliament. It has not surrendered a single one since the war began. The 1990 Taif Agreement gave Hezbollah the state sanctioned right to police Lebanon's southern border with Israel. This agreement is still in effect despite a 2004 UN resolution demanding that Lebanon dismantle Hezbollah's presence along the border.

Hezbollah is the government. The government is Hezbollah.

Israel attacked weapons stockpiles, bridges, airports, and roads so that they couldn't move Israelis into Iran. It then attacked Hezbollah strongholds like headquarters, tv stations, and residences/neighborhoods of leaders.

Lebanon has attacked Israel pretty hard except hasn't been able to do the same amount of damage.

And yes, Lebanon should move its troops into the South. That was the demand. Otherwise they can continually do this over and over again. If the government is supposedly different from Hezbollah and can't do this, there is no reason why it should exist. It's just a mask.

Return the soldiers and move Hezbollah out of the South. It is a demand that the entire world has asked Lebanon to make.

-Rudey

Originally Posted by RACooper

No... it's pretty clear that Hezbollah started this particular conflict.

Hezbollah attacks and kills Israeli soldiers, and kidnaps 2.

Israel retaliates against Lebanon as a whole.

Unlike you I'm more than capable of looking beyond the simplistic black and white, and see that the Lebanese government wouldn't have been involved - simply because it would further risk their already tenuous position, it would further risk giving Hezbollah more public/political power, and finally because the government subsits from grafts on the newly booming tourist business I can't see them willing to risk that lucrative skimming.

Now as for the Israeli demands... well they are pretty f*cking ludicrous right now - demanding that Lebanon disarm Hezbollah... how they hell is the Lebanese government and military supposed to disarm them in the middle of a warzone? Face it the hawks were looking for an excuse to flex some military muscle and they leaped on this as an excuse to bombard Lebanon once again...

[Tom Earp]

RUDEY I know that both You and RA COOPER are true on in this Situation to just call it that, But,Hezbollah, seems to have the same mentality and power to do what thay want no matter what.

But one must remember the mentality of these type of people!

They do not care much as Hammas do.

But, give credit due if it is true that other Arab Countrys are trying to get this calmed down.

This is going effect all of us no matter what, and now to see what Syria and Iran are going to do?