Atheists as members?

[Tom Earp]

Originally posted by MysticCat81
I realize that. I was posting more out of concern for how what you first posted might be construed, rather than what I understood you to be saying as such. I have a little more thought on the matter, but rather than highjack this thread anymore (other than what's below), I've PM'd you.
Except that it's not, Tom. To say it is shows disrespect for sincerely-held religious beliefs by glossing over distinctive and differing beliefs rather than by actually trying to understand them. It amounts to ignorance and disrespect masquarading as tolerance and acceptance.

Then explain to me so I am not so ignorant!

The many names used by different Religions still refer to what? A Supreme Being. Am I correct there?

BetaRose,

no, I am not narrow Minded as You may think or profess. I am not trying to force any beleifs of Mine on anyone.


kddani quote:
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Originally posted by Tom Earp
Maybe people should figure out, that no Matter what The Supreme Being is called, it is the same thing.

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No it is not. That's the point. It can be called by the same name depending on the translation, but it is NOT THE SAME.

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Ah, maybe in The Overall Eye of someone who thinks in Broarder Circles of Life than some do with narrowier minds?

Isnt that why there is so many Situations and Deaths because of Morons who are narrow minded? Say Iraq?

If that is the case, then in Your I think wording (?), I should not like Blacks, Asians, Roman Catholics, Lutherns, Jewish, Musilums or any others?

Paleeze.

[shinerbock]

You just had to put that Iraq comment in didn't you.

[Tom Earp]

Yes I did and relates to small minded people who want to control others.

[SigKapCoug]

I didn't realize this wasa big deal. my chapter has 4 or 5 athiests/agnostics - including myself.

[kstar]

Originally posted by shinerbock
K Star, thats fine, it just means you might not be right for our org. I personally don't care someone's opinion on the "under God" debate, the reason I referenced Newdow is because he is so outwardly opposed to any use of religious reference in the public arena. Someone like that would probably make a similar fuss over some of the things said in our organization, and therefore I'd prefer not have them.

See, that's a bit misleading, I think you meant that you don't want militant atheists in your org, since you now have stated that you don't really care about the "under G**" debate. You made it sound like that was one of the lines of decision, yes or no. I can understand not wanting someone around who protests every use or mention of religion.

I personally wouldn't want anybody who isn't accepting of others' beliefs and militant about theirs in my org. whether they be militant atheist or militant Christian.

I know people who I personally don't agree with their choice of religion or lack there of, but the bottom line is that it is just that: their choice. As long as they are respecting others faiths while following theirs, and meet all other membership requirements, I feel they should be welcome.

[DSTRen13]

Originally posted by MysticCat81
Quite sure. Reread the Gospel of John and see just how many times Jesus equates to himself the title "I Am," which is what YHWH means. As just one example, in John 8:58, Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I am. (It's much clearer in the Greek that he is intentionaly using the "I Am" appellation, but it still comes through in English.)

In Judaism, YHWH is the name of God, which as you said should not be spoken. And in Christianity, God the Father = YHWH, God the Son = YHWH, God the Spirit =YHWH, because even though Father, Son and Spirit are three, they are also one.

Every branch of Christianity probably interprets the Trinity in a slightly different (possibly very different) way. Some don't believe in a trinitarian God at all. Most people would still say they are still all Christian. The above is your interpretation, but it's not the only one.

/end hijack

[Erik P Conard]

In this day and age we can spend all our lives defining our terms
and through the inadequacy of language itself concurrence is not
always found. My PhD gave me more questions, not answers.
Why don't we kinda keep our personal religious thoughts to us
ourselves and go to chapter meeting with the idea of something
good, caring, positive, bringing us all together...
Alfred McClung Lee, the author of "Fraternities without Brotherhood" was a pissed off writer who made a splash back
then and finally disappeared. John Robson, once a poobah with
the Bantas, a delightful Sig Ep, wrote a book on Fraternity, and
he authored a Sig Ep pledge manual. Not too many treatises on
fraternities written for several reasons, one satisfaction, two a
certain disdain for anything fraternal by certain professors. I almost had to hide my membership in grad school, but I could whip 'em all, outdrink most, outdance all, and was infinitely ahead
of 'em socially. But, we all tried to get along. There is yet a built
in resistance in the professorial ranks, but, then, how many do you find who are of the hail-fellow-well-met or extroverted kind?
Cooperation is hard to come by, and even living with a spouse is
a task at times. My fraternal experiences recalled today are of the selective sort, and the unpleasant ones repressed.
There have been a goodly number of short articles on Greek life
but how many in your chapter are eager to write anything? That
is for the academician, and he is often not the gregarious kind. I
found the poorest teachers, by far, in grad schools...
So, at my three score and ten, I say my fraternity experiences were the best...and I intend to value them yet....

[Erik P Conard]

Why not incorporate your concept of GOD into your own personal
interpretation? It is hard to define and you all have come up with
several, each acceptable, definitions.
As a Mason, I kinda like "The Supreme Architect of the Universe."
Isn't that a neat explanation? When I joined the Elks 45 years
ago I was asked, point blank, "Do you believe in God?" Well, I
really thought that was kind of a stupid unqualified question,
but I answered 'yes' and figured that in the whole scheme of
things we were of like purpose, and without considerable time
spent to explain who "God" with the various offshoots and the
hard-to-define construct of it all...that a simple "yes" would do,
I am still an agnostic, and one who feels atheism is not a defensible position. But, these are my thoughts and I have nary
a thing better to offer you.
All these rituals are intended to be lofty, and so mote they be!

[ADSigMel]

The only requirement in my sorority is that everyone be respectful of everyone else's views. Since the organization is based on diversity, we actively recruit women of many religious (and anti-religious) backgrounds. The sorority experience, in addition to being a beautiful bonding experience, is also, in our view, meant to be a part of the larger university educational experience. To that end, we aim to attempt to promote as diverse a sisterhood as possible, so that (1) we don't turn into a "cookie-cutter" sorority, as many others inadvertently do, and (2) so that our members are prepared to deal with others who may not be anything at all like themselves once they are out in the "real world." It has worked out well for us, and it never ceases to surprise me how well people of different races, ethnicities, religions, sexual orientations, majors, and personalities can get along in close quarters.

[Strongbeauty]

Originally posted by MysticCat81
A statement that requires some caveats, I think.

True that "Allah" is Arabic for God (kin to the Hebrew "El"/"Elohim"), so Christians who speak Arabic will use "Allah" where we would say "God."

But to say it is "the same entity" -- a la "Christians and Muslims worship the same God" is a different matter, I think. That falls more under "PC - can't we all get along" that accomplishes little. In my opinion, it actually hinders healthy dialogue that might lead to better relations because it minimizes honestly-held differences in the name of getting along.

Yes, the Christian and Muslim (and Jewish) understanding of God derive from the same sources -- all can be considered Abrahamic faiths. But, just to give one example (albeit a major one) -- Christians believe that Jesus Christ is God. Muslims, while they honor Jesus as a prophet, consider the Christian belief unacceptable. I worship Jesus Christ, along with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit -- one God in three persons, but all completely God. My Muslim neighbor, I do not believe, would consider that he worships the same God I do.

Thanks

[Strongbeauty]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Maybe people should figure out, that no Matter what The Supreme Being is called, it is the same thing.

It still boils down to the fact that if a person Associates and is Initiated, they are a Member and hold to those ideals or work within a frame work of The Organization.

I see that some have addressed this already, but let me provide an example... if you say that Allah and God (Christian) is the same person would you go into a Baptist, Catholic, COGIC church, etc and start a prayer with "giving honor to Allah" or "thank you Allah"... I pray that you wouldn't because that would be offensive, just as I would not go into a Mosque and start thanking Jesus or asking for guidance from the Holy Spirit/Ghost(both parts of the Holy Trinity). I think we say its the same out of PCness but let's be real and admit to ourselves that if someone came to our church with references (in worship) to the other names for the deity we would be upset

[Tom Earp]

Really?

So, is Allah, God, Budda OR Whom Ever who People Believe in as The Supreme Being Different?

OKAY, Let us say there is Not any kind of Supreme Being, but only Aliens from another Planet that built the many things on This Little Planet We call Earth.

This Seems to be the Problem isnt it!

My Named Supreme Being is the Correct Supreme Being!

So, Get over it.


______________________________________________

So what is the answer?

Which Named Deity is The Very, Very Best?

[ADSigMel]

I think I can see where Tom is coming from. I don't think it's overly PC to think that all monotheistic religions do worship the same god. I mean, otherwise, it would mean that either there are multiple Gods or that some religion's god doesn't exist.

I'm sure he's not saying that Muslims worship Jesus, but rather that, to the extent that Muslims and Christians both believe "there is no god but God" / "la ilaha il-allah" (the Arabic phrase that means the same thing), the god of Christianity and the god of Islam must be the same one, otherwise either there are multiple gods or one of us is just dead wrong.

Every Muslim that I know claims to worship the same god that I (as a Christian) do, only they don't see the nature of God the same way that a Christian would (as in, Trinitarian). That is not to say that Christianity and Islam are the same religion, or even particularly similar (although I would argue that they are actually more similar than most people think). I just mean to say that if Muslims and Christians both believe that there is only one god, then the god of both religions logically *must* be the same one. At least that's how I see it, and I think that's what Tom is saying, too (correct me if I'm wrong, please, Tom).

[yalenole]

There are some greek organizations whose ideals are very religous based regardless of the religion. Even some of them have a variety of religious backgrounds in their membership. Some are prdominantly jewish while others are christian. And contrary to many's understanding, the predominantly christian groups have quite a few Catholics because Catholicism is a christian religion. Then there are those who don't consider religious affiliation at all and good for them since this country was founded on religous freedom. For those who do have a religious aspect to them, society should honor them as they do religious freedom.

[Corsulian]

As far as it being a problem,

I started my own interest group for a non-sectarian fraternity before ever actually rushing because I did the research and realized that most organizations had religious references. Being an atheist, the whole idea made me uncomfortable.

I eventually left the group to rush Phi Sig. During the year I presided over the interest group, I had gotten to know many Greeks. In my conversations I was told by some other "non-believers" that it wasn't so much that you were professing a belief/allegiance to God, but that you were professing a belief/allegiance to the respect of the founder's beliefs, and the basic principles that come from those beliefs.

Indeed, I happen to believe in a sort of karma. I think that doing well toward others makes them more inclined to 'pay it forward' and I strongly believe in the Golden Rule. In speaking to some, just the fact that I believe -something- that kinda sorta relates to a 'higher power', that is good enough for any of their organizations. Even large and old organizations that much of this religious stuff in rituals is "based on."

Remember though, the subject here is on atheists/agnostics/etc in Greek organizations, not on who in the thread has the best and most correct beliefs.