The gender war: GC women against GC women?

[Taualumna]

You still don't have to juggle everything AND have to take care of kids. Parents who work don't always have the time to volunteer, to write novels, etc. To them, it's work, housework and dealing with kids. WHen you don't have that, you can spend more time on your job. I never said anything about sitting around the house, doing nothing.

[valkyrie]

Right, but your original point was that people without kids have less stress at work because they're not driving the kids around and doing other kid related stuff. The point I'm trying to make is that the time they're not spending with kids is spent doing other things, and there's a chance some of that can be stressful. Therefore, people with and without kids may have a great deal of stress outside of work. It seemed like you didn't think people without kids have any stress outside of work since they don't have to deal with kids or clean the house. I'm saying that's not true.

Of course parents who work don't always have the time to volunteer or write novels. People without kids are more likely, depending on their situation, to have time to do those things. I guess having that extra time is something you give up when you have kids. If that's too much of a problem to someone, she shouldn't have kids. If she does, she needs to deal with it.

Anyway, not everyone without kids WANTS to spend more time on her job. I'm never having kids, but that doesn't mean I want to spend more time at work than someone who does have kids, especially considering that we're probably making around the same amount of money. What's the point of doing extra work for free? I'd rather do something outside of work I'm likely to enjoy.

[KunjaPrincess]

Originally posted by Taualumna
You still don't have to juggle everything AND have to take care of kids. Parents who work don't always have the time to volunteer, to write novels, etc. To them, it's work, housework and dealing with kids. WHen you don't have that, you can spend more time on your job. I never said anything about sitting around the house, doing nothing.

Who said that all we do is work, housework and kids? I had lots of time for myself even when I was active duty Army which is a lot more hours than many civilian jobs. I rarely got home before 6:30 but I managed to go to school, look after my house, kids and husband and have time for myself to enjoy activities for me. It is all about time management. I also ensured that since I was going to be a working mom I had a great support group for my children who I could rely on. I rarely missed work unless my kids needed to go to the ER. They were very well cared for and loved and they knew that their caregiver was there for them when i truely couldn't be. I never took time away from them on a normal day either. From when i got home till their bedtime was all about them, I didn't answer the phone and I didn't do school work, all that can wait till they are sleeping. I did however ensure that once they were sleeping I could get the stuff done I needed to do.
When we used to have volunteer events through work I still went, my kids can was a car just like me, they may not do a great job but they have fun.
No I didn't write a novel, I had no desire to, but if it had been important to me I would have been able to make the time to do it.
Any woman can be successful regardless of their family status and the husband (significant other) and kids should not be an issue there.

[AXO Alum]

Originally posted by valkyrie
Cooking for one person is just as much work as cooking for more than one person. If you make the same amount of food as you would for a family, you end up with too many leftovers. If you cook less, you end up having to cook every day just like people with kids probably do. I don't see the difference. You also have to clean your house all the time -- I can't believe anyone would think that single people don't have to clean their houses. I have cats, and believe me, I have to clean just as often, if not more often, than people with kids, otherwise I'd have cat litter crumbs and fur all over everything. There's just as much dust in my house as there is in the house of someone with kids. Believe me, I've been in the homes of people who don't clean, and it's not something that I find acceptable.

AGREED! Work is work - whether its work at work, work at home, work at volunteering, etc. Not having kids doesn't = nothing to do, clean, etc.

FWIW - being a SAHM is a terribly hard job. Not that it doesn't have its rewards, but I definitely like to let people know that its not all it seems to be. It is a 24/7 job and hearing "mommy - mommy" all day, while endearing at times, gets on your nerves occasionally. Being with my chapter girls is SO refreshing to me because I get to spend time with adults (mostly ) and not having to provide every attention to detail for my son.

This is why we are done-with-one. I love Eli and I couldn't imagine another life for me right now, but one is plenty for us!

Now I have to deal with the buttheads who CONSTANTLY say to us "only one - you can't have an only child" like its some kind of disease or something. Never mind the fact that Mr. AXO is an only child and seems to have dealt with it just fine

[KillarneyRose]

Originally posted by AXO Alum
It is a 24/7 job and hearing "mommy - mommy" all day, while endearing at times, gets on your nerves occasionally.

Amen to that! How about when they draw it out to multi syllables? Moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooommmy!!! Sometimes I want to hide in the closet for a couple of minutes!

[ISUKappa]

I can kind of see where Taualumna is coming from.

There are a lot of "household skills" that at one time all women were taught/expected to know how to do (and I say women because yes, traditionally, they were the ones who oversaw all the day-to-day household undertakings) that are now falling by the wayside because of modern conveniences. For the most part, they're only kept up by conservative religions (where it's considered "weird" by most outsiders) or hobbyists (where it's kind of cool in a quirky way).

My mom was a home-ec teacher. She taught all us girls how to cook, bake, can, sew, refinish furniture, strip and apply wallpaper, set a good table, write a proper thank you note and start new plants from cuttings. She worked outside the home while I was growing up; her mom worked outside the home while she was growing up (that was in the '50s). Most people are amazed I can make a pie crust from scratch, let alone alter my own clothes and refinish furniture.

Where am I going with this again? Oh yeah.

My sister is a SAHM (one two-year-old- and another due in August). She takes her daughter to storytime, goes on walks, runs her errands and still finds time to hand-make invitations, decorate her house and bake and frost cupcakes to resemble Sesame Street characters. (I love my sister, but damn she's a tough act to follow. I have to compete with that for the rest of my life.)

I, on the other hand, work a full-time job. My only other outside activities are volunteering with the chapter, yet I am barely able to keep my house clean. (What can I say, our dog sheds a small sweater every day and I hate laundry. And I'm lazy.)

Okay, so maybe there really isn't a point to this. Bottom line, kids or no kids, job or no job, you are the only one who needs to be happy with your choice. Funk everyone else.

[BetteDavisEyes]

My younger sister once brought home a yearbook from the middle school we both attended but it was a yearbook from 1954. When I was perusing the pages, I noticed a page for the "Future Homemakers of America" class. This was not a club. It was a class that girls were required to take. This only goes to show how far we've come since then.

It's all about what you decide to do in your spare time. Again, choices, choices, choices and knowing what you want out of life and knowing yourself well enough to know what you want out of life.

For example, for someone with kids:

you can have the bus pick up and drop off your kids to and from school or choose to let them be car-riders.

you can choose to have public transportation carry your children to sports and artsy practice.

you can choose to have a nanny while you're a SAHM or not have a nanny to do the child duties. all you have to do is play with them.

For example, for someone without kids:

you can choose to do nothing or deal with life in general

you can volunteer, work, have friends, etc. I know people with and without kids that do this. My mom does and last time I checked, my mom had kids.

I have a very good friend who has Hodgkins Lymphome that keeps coming back. If that's not stressful to worry about, please explain stress.

[33girl]

Originally posted by BetteDavisEyes
My younger sister once brought home a yearbook from the middle school we both attended but it was a yearbook from 1954. When I was perusing the pages, I noticed a page for the "Future Homemakers of America" class. This was not a club. It was a class that girls were required to take. This only goes to show how far we've come since then.

I was required to take Home Ec class in jr high, and I graduated well after 1954. At the same time the guys all had to take shop, which I would argue is much more useless than home ec. I don't see anything wrong with having a high school class for women AND men to teach the basics of cooking, mending etc. Not everyone has someone around to teach them that stuff, and it's scary how clueless some people are about the basics of running a home and taking care of yourself.

[winnieb]

Originally posted by Taualumna
(women without families make more money than women who do because there is less outside stress, making them more productive and are more likely to be promoted quicker than women with family),

I do agree with this... but I am looking at it from a different point of view....

Yes single people still have to cook, clean, pay bills, have normal stresses of life---- "life" is essentially the same for us all regardless of martial status or the number of kids.

But women without kids also have more time to be focused at work-- you don't have a kid calling to let you know they arrived home from school, or the school nurse calling to say your kid is sick and come now. When the nurse calls with a sick kid you drop everything and go--sick kid and nurse don't care that you have a looming deadline. Those things make a difference in a career. Few women can say their employer is 100% understanding. There are such things as FMLA that help in major cases--but the random day of "my kid is puking" doesn't qualify for FMLA. Even the dreaded chicken pox doesn't qualify, when my youngest got them I was home a week with him. My boss at the time was understanding, but then the guilt sets in- you know you need to be at work but your kid needs you.

It is a fine line to balance work and kids. There are kid things I skip-with guilt. Like my sons Thanksgiving dinner at school-- I had been with this company for 2 months and didn't want to leave for 2 hours for lunch--so my husband went instead. Our son had one of us there-and I didn't have to ask for time off at work.

Regarding men and how they view it in the workplace. Men generally aren't the ones to take off- sick kids are the mom's job. I have found men with stay at home wives are the worst for compassion-- they never have to deal with it, so they don't get the rushing out of work. They seems to overlook that the rush out also entails my arms full of whatever I need to work from home that afternoon. Many times I have heard "enjoy your afternoon off" my response is "between getting puked on and the report due at the end of the day- I will try-thanks"

So yes, anyone has the same stresses in life--but with kids those stresses overflow into work-since puking, chicken pox and the school nurse don't care what deadlines are there--and women do have to work harder tomake sure it all gets done.

[ISUKappa]

Originally posted by 33girl
I was required to take Home Ec class in jr high, and I graduated well after 1954. At the same time the guys all had to take shop, which I would argue is much more useless than home ec. I don't see anything wrong with having a high school class for women AND men to teach the basics of cooking, mending etc. Not everyone has someone around to teach them that stuff, and it's scary how clueless some people are about the basics of running a home and taking care of yourself.

We (both boys and girls) were required to take Home Ec AND wood shop in 7th and 8th grades. 7th grade was sewing for Home Ec and small wood projects for shop (I think I made a shelf); 8th grade was cooking in HE and a lamp out of a pop/beer can for shop.

My friend and I were the only two girls in the CAD class one year in high school. That was the coolest class and I way kicked all the guys' asses in it.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by winnieb
So yes, anyone has the same stresses in life--but with kids those stresses overflow into work-since puking, chicken pox and the school nurse don't care what deadlines are there--and women do have to work harder tomake sure it all gets done.

I'm not saying that this isn't true, but on the other side, when you're at work and you're on the phone dealing with your puking kid or you're not at work because your kid is sick and you couldn't take her to daycare or find a sitter, there's a good chance the people picking up the slack are people without kids. That's stressful too, because frankly I don't want to be covering for someone who is dealing with a sick kid, because nobody at work is going to cover for me if my cat is sick or if I have some other reason I want to ditch out of work early that's not related to a child.

This isn't an issue that really bothers me, by the way, but I just want to point out that it exists.

[AGDee]

Originally posted by valkyrie
I'm not saying that this isn't true, but on the other side, when you're at work and you're on the phone dealing with your puking kid or you're not at work because your kid is sick and you couldn't take her to daycare or find a sitter, there's a good chance the people picking up the slack are people without kids. That's stressful too, because frankly I don't want to be covering for someone who is dealing with a sick kid, because nobody at work is going to cover for me if my cat is sick or if I have some other reason I want to ditch out of work early that's not related to a child.

This isn't an issue that really bothers me, by the way, but I just want to point out that it exists.

That may be true in some circumstances, but in my workplace, we all have the same number of days off per year whether we're parents or not. Me and the other network guy each get 6 weeks off a year. While I end up taking mine in little increments, a couple hours here, a couple there, a day here, a day there, he gets to go on two week vacations at a time. Most of what I do can wait a few hours, or a day, so it's there waiting for me when I get back. Most things can't wait 2 weeks! I cover for him for very long periods of time sometimes! I live for the day that my kids can stay home alone on half days, sick days, snow days, etc. so that I can take REAL vacations and not piddle it away. Two weeks off straight.. that seems like such a luxury to me right now!

There is a genuine conflict between work responsibilities and child responsibilities and all responsible working mothers feel that intense conflict and guilt. It's a different kind of stress, because it's guilt and we internalize it.

I love that women have choices. I respect whatever the woman chooses to do. I have co-workers who pull the "single mom" card often. It irks me to no end! I am also irked by SAHMs who can't volunteer for things because "I have two kids". Well, I have two kids, I work 40 hours a week, I don't have a husband to do the yard work or take out the garbage, I am a Cub Scout Leader, I volunteer for AGD, go to alumnae club meetings, and I go on as many of my kids' field trips as possible. I shuttle my kids to their activities. My house is clean. I do the majority of my own repairs at home. I still have time to post on Greek Chat. It's all about time management. You can do what you really want to do.

I'm sure most know by now that I'm not the most pro-marriage person on this board (ok... that's a HUGE understatement). I am far less stressed out now than I was when I was married. Then, I not only did all of the above, but I also had a full grown adult who was selfish and the biggest slob in the world. He didn't do a darn thing around the house except make huge messes and break things worse when he tried to fix them. Not dealing with this other person who was a total drain on me both physically and emotionally is MUCH easier.

I love the idea of both genders taking home ec classes. I also think both genders should take shop though. I learned how to use a lot of power tools in OT school because they taught us how to make our own adaptive equipment and it has saved me thousands in home repairs because I can do so much myself. It also helps when you have to make Pinewood Derby cars. I think basic car repair classes for both genders would be great too.

I also become concerned about women who are completely financially dependently on their husbands. I know too many who have been left in really awful situations with no jobs and no money due to divorce or the injury or death of a spouse. It makes it nearly impossible for a woman to leave if she is abused or cheated on. It gives all the power in a relationship to the man. I don't see a reason to put yourself in that position. Taking care of yourself should always be your first concern and that includes both financially and emotionally.

Ok, so this has become a mini-book. I knew it would, once I finally responded to this thread.

Most importantly: Women who are basing their self worth on having a husband are at highest risk for abuse and for "settling" for someone. The goal shouldn't be "to get married". The goal should be to find a good partner for life. It is too often confused and women need to know that it is ok to NOT be married. It doesn't mean that they are a failure in life. It simply means they didn't make bad choices and are waiting for the good one to come along. If they never meet him, then they are still good people.

And, those are things that it took me two marriages and 40 years of life experiences and observations to learn.

Dee

[BetteDavisEyes]

Originally posted by 33girl
Not everyone has someone around to teach them that stuff, and it's scary how clueless some people are about the basics of running a home and taking care of yourself.

True. My fiance knows more about running a household, cooking, & cleaning than 2 of my sisters.

[winnieb]

Originally posted by valkyrie
I'm not saying that this isn't true, but on the other side, when you're at work and you're on the phone dealing with your puking kid or you're not at work because your kid is sick and you couldn't take her to daycare or find a sitter, there's a good chance the people picking up the slack are people without kids. That's stressful too, because frankly I don't want to be covering for someone who is dealing with a sick kid, because nobody at work is going to cover for me if my cat is sick or if I have some other reason I want to ditch out of work early that's not related to a child.

This isn't an issue that really bothers me, by the way, but I just want to point out that it exists.

I am sure there are some offices where people pick up the slack for missing co-workers. I have never worked in one of those offices. My work sits there until I am there to do it. When my kids are home sick I take work home, and work from home. I have access to email and can get into our systems at the office. I always have my cell phone available too. I have never worked in a situation where some covered for me. Even when I go on a scheduled vaca, my work for an entire week will still be there when I return.