Underground Chapters

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
There is only one widely accepted definition of an underground chapter.

Its is a fully chartered chapter that is not recognized by its host institution.

Its that simple.

Well, it's almost that simple.

Historically, "underground chapters" were fully-chartered chapters that the academic institution was not aware of -- that is, the chapter was located at a school that did not know of or could not prove the chapter's existence. Such chapters were also called sub rosa ("under the rose"), a reference to an old practice of using a rose over a door to mark a secret meeting place.

Sub rosa chapters, particularly of "young" fraternities, were not uncommon in the nineteenth century, when in some institutions membership in a fraternity could be grounds for expulsion from school. The existence of the chapter had to be kept secret from the school administration.

Obviously, that is not as much of an issue anymore, and arguably the term "underground" chapter may have taken on a more "fluid" usage. But I don't think it is the proper word to apply to the situation of a group operating without the knowledge of the fraternity in question. Because a charter is required to make a group of people a "chapter," a group operating without the knowledge of the fraternity's governing body is not a chapter, underground or otherwise. It is a group of people posing as a chapter.

Nor is a fully-chartered chapter that is simply unrecognized by an academic institution "underground" if the institution has knowledge of it, or if the chapter is not operating in secret. The chapter is merely unrecognized. As Lady Pi Phi noted, "underground" or sub rosa presumes that the existence of the chapter is being concealed from the institution's administration.

[Tom Earp]

Good Points All.

Oh, there is a difference between Suspension by the School. That usually is for a period of time for infractions. Will be welcomed back when suspension is lifted.

Underground does seem to have a different distinction though.

Now, is it underground by the school or IHQ? If a Chartered GLO, then is it underground when not being a recognized Group, or Undergraound when not recognized by The HQ?

I am guessing Undergraound when not recognized by the HQ first and then the school is secondary.

[SmartBlondeGPhB]

Originally posted by kddani
Thank you TSteven for keeping the school and situation relatively anonymous/hypothetical.

It seems like this is more prevalent among fraternities than sororities. I'm sure it happens with sororities, don't get me wrong, but it seems we here about it more with fraternities. Why does everyone think that is?

I know that when a KD house is shut dow (I haven't been part of the process but I know and have spoken to many people that have been), everything is taken by HQ and the House Corp. Usually put in storage, in hopes that the chapter will open again. But i'm sure that all the ritual stuff would be taken... though if a chapter is in a situation to get shut down, it may have a few members that would think nothing of xeroxing the ritual materials

That's how it works for us..........

[SmartBlondeGPhB]

Originally posted by alphaalpha
Quick Question:

Here is the situation
If a chapter is not recognized by the university for a specific period of time, lets say Jan to Dec 31, 2005. The sorority was a recognized colonized chapter but got penalized for some time of infraction. Now this sorority has a house that is considered off campus, freshman have to live in the dorms and can not live in the sorority house.

So, here is the question:

Can this sorority members
1) live in the house,

2) still behave as a chapter as in have in house sisterhood events, ect, even though they may not particpate in campus activities like greek week (for example)

3) have ritual (again in house) say like members going through active to alumni ceremony.

Would these activities be considered an underground chapter, cause they are not recognized by the university, until their probation is over?

From the experiences I have had, most of those kind of groups are simply considered "unrecognized" from the University's perspective. They usually are barred from participating in recruitment for x amount of time due to some infraction. I know at the UW, the University lists these type of situations on the Greek Life website. The chapter still exists, but isn't recognized (usually for a year's time). When the time is up, all recognition is restored. At the same time, they are probably on some form of probation with their International org. But they are still an official chapter.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Now, is it underground by the school or IHQ? If a Chartered GLO, then is it underground when not being a recognized Group, or Undergraound when not recognized by The HQ?

I am guessing Undergraound when not recognized by the HQ first and then the school is secondary.

Historically, it's an underground chapter when chartered by HQ and kept secret from the school.

It's an unrecognized chapter when chartered by HQ and not recognized as a student organization by the school.

These days, a group of people posing as members of a fraternity but not recognized as a chapter by HQ is sometimes called an "underground chapter" or a "rogue chapter," but this would seem to be a misnomer since it is not a chapter at all. It's a group of posers; at best, a local passing itself off as a chapter of a national fraternity.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
hijack

I love how secret societies are a security risk, meanwhile the prision is just down the street.

/hijack

Actually in Queen's (and the governments) instance I believe there was a concern that some Fraternities or secret societies could be based on the German model, and as such beholden in some way to German influence - which could be used to plant enemy/subversive agents within not only Queens but the neighbouring military base and the Royal Military College.

I do know that RMC is still vehemently against any secretive societies operating with the student population in town - and Queens has never seen fit to lift the ban. Some GLOs tried to establish themselves in the 20s, 30s, and 40s... but Queen's came down hard - not the Administration, but the students...

Wording of ban at Queen's:
By resolution of Senate, no student registered with the University may form or become a member of any chapter of an externally affiliated fraternity or sorority at or near Kingston.

Entry on Fraternities and Sororities from Queen's website:

Fraternities and Sororities. Queen's is one of few universities in North America which does not have fraternities or sororities. They have been banned at the university since a ruling by the alma mater society in 1933. The ruling was a response to the formation of two fraternities in the 1920s, one for arts and science students and a second, more active one, for medical students. The majority of students, who prided themselves on Queen's egalitarianism and united community spirit, disapproved of these organizations because of their external affiliations and the exclusivity that they fostered. A coalition of anti-fraternity forces, led by the levana society and Arts and Theology students, swept the AMS elections of 1933 and sponsored an open meeting of about 1000 students at grant hall, at which students voted to ban all fraternities and sororities. The 24 members of the medical fraternity, however, defied this ban and were brought before the AMS Court in 1934 for contravention of the AMS constitution. They were found guilty and declared ineligible to participate in all student political, social, and athletic activities for a year. This finally brought an end to fraternities, but the medical students carried on what became known as Medical House, a residence for medical students at 49 King Street East which still flourishes, but with none of the external affiliations or traditional rites of fraternities. There have never been any sororities at the university.

That all being said I do know that AEPi has been trying to establish a chapter at Queens - which would of course make them an underground chapter in many respects...

[emb021]

Originally posted by RACooper
Actually in Queen's (and the governments) instance I believe there was a concern that some Fraternities or secret societies could be based on the German model, and as such beholden in some way to German influence - which could be used to plant enemy/subversive agents within not only Queens but the neighbouring military base and the Royal Military College.

I do know that RMC is still vehemently against any secretive societies operating with the student population in town - and Queens has never seen fit to lift the ban. Some GLOs tried to establish themselves in the 20s, 30s, and 40s... but Queen's came down hard - not the Administration, but the students...

Wording of ban at Queen's:
By resolution of Senate, no student registered with the University may form or become a member of any chapter of an externally affiliated fraternity or sorority at or near Kingston.

Entry on Fraternities and Sororities from Queen's website:



That all being said I do know that AEPi has been trying to establish a chapter at Queens - which would of course make them an underground chapter in many respects...

Weird.

How is this any different from joining a local chapter of a national professional student group (ie students who are studing medicine, business, engineering, computers, etc)?

[Taualumna]

Originally posted by emb021
Weird.

How is this any different from joining a local chapter of a national professional student group (ie students who are studing medicine, business, engineering, computers, etc)?

Lack of ritual.

ETA:

By resolution of Senate, no student registered with the University may form or become a member of any chapter of an externally affiliated fraternity or sorority at or near Kingston.

Queen's needs to reword this to "no student registered with the university may form or become an ACTIVE COLLEGIAN member of any chapter of an externally affiliated fraternity.....


Lots of grad students at Queen's are alumni of GLOs from their undergrad school are still MEMBERS of their GLOs, just not active/collegian....and what does "near Kingston" mean? Ottawa is "near" Kingston, and there are GLOs there.

[33girl]

Originally posted by MysticCat81
Obviously, that is not as much of an issue anymore, and arguably the term "underground" chapter may have taken on a more "fluid" usage. But I don't think it is the proper word to apply to the situation of a group operating without the knowledge of the fraternity in question. Because a charter is required to make a group of people a "chapter," a group operating without the knowledge of the fraternity's governing body is not a chapter, underground or otherwise. It is a group of people posing as a chapter.

Maybe that's the case. But it's a heck of a lot easier to just say "I went to a party at XYZ. They are an underground fraternity" than "I went to a party at the house that holds men that were members of the former chapter of XYZ who used to be chartered but now are not and are a just a group of people posing as a chapter." I mean, let's get real. No one is going to say that. "Underground" conveys the sense of outlawism and how serious the offense is - kind of like "suicide" vs. "intentional single preference."

[knight_shadow]

everytime i've heard 'underground chapter', it's in reference to the pledge/new member program

underground - pledges/new members aren't revealed until they actually initiate/cross over

above ground - pledges/new members are known from the time they receive bids

[alphaalpha]

Originally posted by SmartBlondeGPhB
From the experiences I have had, most of those kind of groups are simply considered "unrecognized" from the University's perspective. They usually are barred from participating in recruitment for x amount of time due to some infraction. I know at the UW, the University lists these type of situations on the Greek Life website. The chapter still exists, but isn't recognized (usually for a year's time). When the time is up, all recognition is restored. At the same time, they are probably on some form of probation with their International org. But they are still an official chapter.

Actually i was talking about a sorority at WSU, I work at WSU-Vancouver and, well you know how people gossip, some of the people where talking about news from PUllman, i guess one of their daughters is going to rush in the fall and i head that one of the sororities is on probation (don't want to name names on here) anyway, these women know that i was in a sorority and were asking me questions. I would assume that this sorority could not rush, however I do not know if the groups HQ has put them on probation. But their HQ probably knows, but i don't know what they did, if anything. The people i work with had been asking me questions and i did not know to tell them.

I was really interested more in the, if the members could live in their house while on probation. The other answers i pretty much figured out, just thought that i would ask since the thread was brought up. Thanks for all the answers.
debbie

[keke]

I will have to agree that underground references a chapters status with regards to their HQ and not the host university, and unrecognized pertains to an organization/chapters affiliation with the host university.

There seem to be plenty of univeristies that don't recognize glo's but that doesn't mean the chapters associated with the school are not in good standing with their HQ, but are instead unrecog by the HI.

[emb021]

Originally posted by Taualumna
Lack of ritual.

Well, yes, I know there is a lack of rituals in such groups, but how does having a ritual make them 'exclusive' (and I assume 'elitist').

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by 33girl
Maybe that's the case. But it's a heck of a lot easier to just say "I went to a party at XYZ. They are an underground fraternity" than "I went to a party at the house that holds men that were members of the former chapter of XYZ who used to be chartered but now are not and are a just a group of people posing as a chapter." I mean, let's get real. No one is going to say that. "Underground" conveys the sense of outlawism and how serious the offense is - kind of like "suicide" vs. "intentional single preference."

Of course, which is why I said earlier that "underground" has taken on a more fluid meaning. Obviously, a short hand is needed. And I wouldn't have a problem with "underground fraternity, which is what you used above, or even "underground house." My problem is with using "underground chapter" to describe a group operating without a national fraternity's authorization.

"Underground" in the context of fraternity operations means "secret" or "clandestine." Thus, for a "chapter" to be "underground," it has to be operating clandestinely with regard to some authority. Historically, the authority in question was the academic institution.

Now, the term is sometimes/often used where the authority is the fraternity itself, or perhaps the fraternity and the academic institution. My only point was that "underground chapter" is probably not the best shorthand for "members of the former chapter of XYZ who used to be chartered but now are not and are a just a group of people posing as a chapter." It's not the best shorthand because (1) "underground chapter" implies that the group really is a chapter of a national GLO when it's not, and (2) "underground chapter" historically has a specific meaning for GLOs: a fully-chartered clandestine chapter, the existence or membership of which is kept secret from -- or at least not admitted to -- the academic institution. One can still find this kind of underground chapter at some schools today.

That's the only reason I questioned "underground chapter" as a good shorthand for renegade groups that a national fraternity doesn't know about or recognize.

[Taualumna]

Originally posted by emb021
Well, yes, I know there is a lack of rituals in such groups, but how does having a ritual make them 'exclusive' (and I assume 'elitist').

I think they're just trying to find an excuse. The marching band at Queen's is seen by some as "elitist" as well, but officially, no one has issues with them.