Another Colorado student found dead in a fraternity house...

[Little E]

ok, so then they say its hazing, it still doesn't change the fact that even nice guys to stupid shit like this on a regular basis.

[gogoaphi]

Wow ... that editorial is certainly "lacerating" and hard to dispute. I get sick of people being apologists for our organizations by simply saying that such stupid behavior isn't "unique" to the fraternity experience. What should be unique is that these things DON'T happen in our organizations because we actually believe in the values that are a part of our symbols and rituals. Unfortunately, it all gets mixed up in the risk management concerns that we all must also contend with. Therefore, you get national people being quoted in papers because they are making comments that speak to our need to manage risk. As a Greek, I understood what the Chi Psi rep was trying to say. But the writer makes a good point that to most people, some of the "distinctions" are really a bunch of crap. Thanks for posting this editorial.

For the record, writing demeaning remarks on someone's body (sober or drunk) is hazing ... period. I think its sad that this isn't grossly apparent to anyone that calls themself Greek.

Come on ... let's stand for something!!!

[James]

Would you act the same way if it was a 25 year old fraternity member that drank himself to death?

I understand the useless emotional outcry that accompanies a highly publisized death.

I understand that emotion clouds logic.

I don't understand your argument. ITs against our values to drink alcohol? OR is it against our values to drink ourselves into an early grave?

I can almost assure you he didn't intend to die.

As far as letting this happen . . . what are you talkking about? We have already establishedthat you have a much better chance of getting hit by lightning as dying of alcohol poisoing. Its a freak event.

But wait wait wait . . . . lets reverse it. Maybe Greeks are doing an awesome job at keeping our brothers and sisters alive.

After all, if drinking is such a clear and present danger that you take your life in your hands every time you drink, then maybe we should laud the fraternities and sororities for prevening literally millions of deaths a year.

WE take such good care of our sisters and brothers and friends that only a couple people slip through the cracks every year to die.

Thats pretty good care.

Originally posted by gogoaphi
Wow ... that editorial is certainly "lacerating" and hard to dispute. I get sick of people being apologists for our organizations by simply saying that such stupid behavior isn't "unique" to the fraternity experience. What should be unique is that these things DON'T happen in our organizations because we actually believe in the values that are a part of our symbols and rituals. Unfortunately, it all gets mixed up in the risk management concerns that we all must also contend with. Therefore, you get national people being quoted in papers because they are making comments that speak to our need to manage risk. As a Greek, I understood what the Chi Psi rep was trying to say. But the writer makes a good point that to most people, some of the "distinctions" are really a bunch of crap. Thanks for posting this editorial.

For the record, writing demeaning remarks on someone's body (sober or drunk) is hazing ... period. I think its sad that this isn't grossly apparent to anyone that calls themself Greek.

Come on ... let's stand for somet

hing!!!

[exlurker]

Originally posted by Little E
ok, so then they say its hazing, it still doesn't change the fact that even nice guys do stupid shit like this on a regular basis.

If they're doing "stupid shit like this on a regular basis," I would question whether they're in fact "nice guys."
But that's just me.

[Tom Earp]

The problem really stems from the fact that when it happens to a member of a Greek Organization, it is then blown up to such a large proportion that the total Greek System looks exceedingly bad.

If one considers the Greek Population membership, then the % who die is very small compared to actual alcohol deaths.

But as the supposedly cream of the crop and future possible leaders We are the ones to take the Heat because of other stupid things that are done in conjunction.

[gogoaphi]

I would be equally mortified if the member was 52, James. You miss the point entirely because you are too busy trying to defend the moronic behavior going on out there. Besides ... we know that the vast majority of our collegiate membership aren't even of legal drinking age.

It certainly isn't in our values to ENCOURAGE the consumption of alcohol. And, it is most certainly not a part of our values to consume so much alcohol that you become incoherent. And, it is very much a part of our values to obey the laws associated with alcohol.

I don't really care how many people die from being hit by lightening as it is not relevant in the least bit. You must have flunked out of high-school debate or something. You need to come up with something better than that. You miss the entire point James. In fact you miss the point so much that I can't figure out how you became the moderator for this forum. The overconsumption of alcohol is not a deisred activity. Creating situations where members are encouraged to overconsume alcohol is not a desired activity. Writing on members is not a desired activity. Those are not "freak events".

Let me get this right ... you said "After all, if drinking is such a clear and present danger that you take your life in your hands every time you drink, then maybe we should laud the fraternities and sororities for prevening literally millions of deaths a year." Either you really believe this BS you're dishing out or you're just trying to be contrary. We all know that the overconsumption of alcohol leads to many risks (including possible death). There is NOTHING redeeming in the situation that went down here. NOTHING. I would like to hear you defend the practice of having a chapter tradition to take new members into the mountains and drink massive amounts of alcohol before they can come back and then tap a keg when they are back at the house. And then I would like to hear you defend having a chapter custom of writing on anyone who passes out with their shoes on. There is no defense for it, James. So what if lots of other kids unaffiliated with a Greek group get caught up in drinking too much? We're talking about OUR members who we are supposed to actually care about.

A Greek Organization should be a place that encourages more responsible behavior instead of coming up with more clever ideas of how to do it. I will never throw my hands up in the air and say ... "Oh well, kids will be kids ... at leat not very many of them are dying out there."

Get a clue, James. I only hope that you aren't out there advising a collegiate chapter.

[ADqtPiMel]

Originally posted by gogoaphi
I would be equally mortified if the member was 52, James. You miss the point entirely because you are too busy trying to defend the moronic behavior going on out there. Besides ... we know that the vast majority of our collegiate membership aren't even of legal drinking age.

It certainly isn't in our values to ENCOURAGE the consumption of alcohol. And, it is most certainly not a part of our values to consume so much alcohol that you become incoherent. And, it is very much a part of our values to obey the laws associated with alcohol.

I don't really care how many people die from being hit by lightening as it is not relevant in the least bit. You must have flunked out of high-school debate or something. You need to come up with something better than that. You miss the entire point James. In fact you miss the point so much that I can't figure out how you became the moderator for this forum. The overconsumption of alcohol is not a deisred activity. Creating situations where members are encouraged to overconsume alcohol is not a desired activity. Writing on members is not a desired activity. Those are not "freak events".

Let me get this right ... you said "After all, if drinking is such a clear and present danger that you take your life in your hands every time you drink, then maybe we should laud the fraternities and sororities for prevening literally millions of deaths a year." Either you really believe this BS you're dishing out or you're just trying to be contrary. We all know that the overconsumption of alcohol leads to many risks (including possible death). There is NOTHING redeeming in the situation that went down here. NOTHING. I would like to hear you defend the practice of having a chapter tradition to take new members into the mountains and drink massive amounts of alcohol before they can come back and then tap a keg when they are back at the house. And then I would like to hear you defend having a chapter custom of writing on anyone who passes out with their shoes on. There is no defense for it, James. So what if lots of other kids unaffiliated with a Greek group get caught up in drinking too much? We're talking about OUR members who we are supposed to actually care about.

A Greek Organization should be a place that encourages more responsible behavior instead of coming up with more clever ideas of how to do it. I will never throw my hands up in the air and say ... "Oh well, kids will be kids ... at leat not very many of them are dying out there."

Get a clue, James. I only hope that you aren't out there advising a collegiate chapter.

Post of the year. I agree completely.

[33girl]

What if this had happened in Canada, where drinking age is 19, or on spring break in Mexico, where I'm guessing there is no such thing as a drinking age?

I think the laws against alcohol consmption before 21 are discriminatory, dangerous, misguided and wrong. I don't think it is in our values to obey laws that can be classified in that manner...any more than I think it was in our values in 1951 for sororities and fraternities to obey Jim Crow laws in the south.

Just pointing out that our values and the law of the land are not necessarily synonymous...it would be quite upsetting in some situations if they were. To intimate that if you break the laws you aren't upholding your GLO's values is ludicrous and asinine.

We'll never know if he was "pressured" to drink, as we were not there. The guys at Chi Psi might be total assholes, but that doesn't mean that they forced him to drink.

[gogoaphi]

I dunno ... most groups have a core value based around the idea of citizenship which includes abiding by the laws of the land. If nothing else, there are pretty universal rules of each organization at the national level about obeying drinking laws. Dropping someone off in the mountains with a bunch of booze and telling them to drink it before they can come back sounds pretty much like pressure to me. Perhaps you can enlighten us on how this incident supports our values. I must be missing it somewhere.

[Peaches-n-Cream]

I think that the drinking age should be lowered to 18. I agree with 33girl about the discriminatory nature of a drinking age of 21.

Alcohol education should realistically address the situations that students will face. They should learn the signs of alcohol poisoning. Students should be encouraged to call for medical assistance without the fear of punishment if a friend gets extremely drunk or overdoses. I really think that ignorance about the symptoms of alcohol poisoning and fear of punishment were contributing factors in the deaths of these students and could contribute to even more deaths.

[hoosier]

Originally posted by Little E
I hate to say it, but I can see a group of drunk guys, who don't realize how sick someone is, doing stupid stuff like writing on people or other juvenille behavior. The stories I heard the year I was on a fraternity meal plan shocked me. People who were usually the sweetest people, did the sickest stuff to others occasionally. No it is probably not hazing to write on someone, but guys in college (no offense guys I'm not pointing fingers at anyone) can be the dummest creatures. The world around seems to disappear and all sensibilities are gone. This death is tragic and the ones this fall, it is time for people to wake up and realize.

Almost every day www.collegehumor.com has a campus picture of some passed out guy who's gotten the sharpy treatment. These recent ones are safe for family viewing:

http://www.collegehumor.com/?image_id=72620

http://www.collegehumor.com/?image_id=72547

http://www.collegehumor.com/?image_id=72270

http://www.collegehumor.com/?image_id=71888

[33girl]

Originally posted by gogoaphi
I dunno ... most groups have a core value based around the idea of citizenship which includes abiding by the laws of the land. If nothing else, there are pretty universal rules of each organization at the national level about obeying drinking laws. Dropping someone off in the mountains with a bunch of booze and telling them to drink it before they can come back sounds pretty much like pressure to me. Perhaps you can enlighten us on how this incident supports our values. I must be missing it somewhere.

Perhaps you can enlighten me on how supporting Jim Crow laws supports our values.

And I hope to heaven that we didn't have any suffragettes in our pre-1920 ranks, because they were most definitely breaking the law. I think we should find out who they were and pull their pins posthumously.

Blind suppport of stupid laws is not good citizenship nor is it a desirable attribute in a fraternity or sorority member.

And I don't see anything in this story where it says they were "dropped off" and left there without the brothers or without a way to leave...if this is in a story further down, please point it out.

[AGDee]

Originally posted by hoosier
Almost every day www.collegehumor.com has a campus picture of some passed out guy who's gotten the sharpy treatment. These recent ones are safe for family viewing:

http://www.collegehumor.com/?image_id=72620

http://www.collegehumor.com/?image_id=72547

http://www.collegehumor.com/?image_id=72270

http://www.collegehumor.com/?image_id=71888

I think the fact that these show up as "collegehumor" tells a lot about how the current college student generation views getting so drunk that you pass out. It's viewed as funny, not as a serious medical issue.

While I am not opposed to the lowering of the drinking age to 19 (18 year olds are still in highschool much of the time and we don't really need them buying beer/alcohol for their younger buddies there), I don't think that you can equate it to the Suffrage movement. The Suffragettes formed political organizations and lobbied for change. They didn't simply show up at polls, grab ballots and vote. If these young people want to lobby to get the drinking age lowered, then they need to show that they can drink responsibly. High numbers of college drinking deaths isn't going to be seen as a strong argument for lowering the drinking age to most politicans or most people in the community.

The drinking age was 21 while I was in school, and hadn't been that way for very long, but we didn't think it was funny when someone drank until they got drunk or passed out. There was a level of drunkenness that was fun, but we weren't doing 21 shots on our 21st birthday, this century club thing or the power hour thing.

There is something about our culture now that says "It's hilarious and fun to drink until you black out". Back in the day, it was hilarious and fun to drink until you wore a lampshade for a hat, not til you passed out. It seems like the message for so long was "Don't drink and drive" that people think it doesn't matter how drunk they get, as long as there is a designated driver or they don't have to drive anywhere.

Why the change? I don't know. Hopefully more studies will be done. I have no idea what the solution to the problem is. And, my concern about lowering the drinking age is that we will just see the same problems occurring in younger drinkers.

Dee

[astroAPhi]

Wow, that certainly is a scathing editorial. I think he maybe took on too much of a snotty (not the word I want to use, but I can't think of anything better) tone, but he is right that we have to be responsible for each other. At the very least, we're supposed to be like family to each other (hence the term "brother" or "sister"), even if we're not friends.

I do agree with those of you who said that we should stand for something higher than the average college student. I thought we were supposed to be the example of the educated gentleman or lady.

I'll agree that college students drink too much. I'll agree that people in fraternities and sororities can't be expected to be perfect and that they're going to make mistakes. But there's a line to draw between making a mistake and stupidity. We all know deep down what's right and what's wrong, whether we're in an organization or not.

[33girl]

Originally posted by AGDee
If these young people want to lobby to get the drinking age lowered, then they need to show that they can drink responsibly. High numbers of college drinking deaths isn't going to be seen as a strong argument for lowering the drinking age to most politicans or most people in the community.

The drinking age was 21 while I was in school, and hadn't been that way for very long, but we didn't think it was funny when someone drank until they got drunk or passed out. There was a level of drunkenness that was fun, but we weren't doing 21 shots on our 21st birthday, this century club thing or the power hour thing.

There is something about our culture now that says "It's hilarious and fun to drink until you black out". Back in the day, it was hilarious and fun to drink until you wore a lampshade for a hat, not til you passed out. It seems like the message for so long was "Don't drink and drive" that people think it doesn't matter how drunk they get, as long as there is a designated driver or they don't have to drive anywhere.

Why the change? I don't know. Hopefully more studies will be done. I have no idea what the solution to the problem is. And, my concern about lowering the drinking age is that we will just see the same problems occurring in younger drinkers.

Dee

I don't know how 18/19/20 year olds can show that they will be responsible drinkers when they're not allowed to drink or (in PA) even be around alcohol. It's a catch-22.

You're right on with the "don't drink and drive" correlation - I mean I've seen people younger than me freak out if the DD has even a sip of beer, but if someone not the DD is so drunk we have to carry them to the car, that's OK.

Over the past 10-12 years things have definitely changed...I mean I remember as a high schooler going to an anniversary party w/ my parents and getting very poopy-faced. Nowadays some "well-meaning" person would probably call the cops and have my parents and the servers all thrown in jail. As people have taken it on themselves to judge others and make their decisions for them, the idea of personal responsibility has gone out the window.