The growth of radical Islam

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
The growth of radical Islam is only a concern in those nations that are economically disconnected from the modern world. Indonesia is connected, so it should not be a surprise that violent terrorism is not emerging from Indonesian Muslims.

Unfortunately, most the terrorists in the region are homegrown. They are members of Jemaah Islamiyah. The "head" bombers is a British trained Malaysian engineer. The spiritual leader, Abu Bakar Bashyir is in jail right now facing murder charges. All of the Bali bombers are also Indonesian, though they were quickly identified and arrested. All were found guilty and sentenced to death. They are appealling the sentence. It is interesting though that one of the bombers has become the greatest tool for BIN (Indonesian's CIA) and the police.

One thing that BIN is complaining about is the lack of access to inteligence from the western world. They have been compalining about not being able to interogate Hambli, who is in US custody, so they can get a clear picture of the structure of JI.

Despite all this, I believe that they are doing a good job in fighting JI. It has to do with good inteligence work, and JI loosing support because of the work of NU and Muhammadiyah who is in the forefront discouraging people from joining them. Also the fact that JI made a tactical error in bombing both Bali and Jakarta.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
The growth of radical Islam is only a concern in those nations that are economically disconnected from the modern world. Indonesia is connected, so it should not be a surprise that violent terrorism is not emerging from Indonesian Muslims.

There is still terrorism there. I don't think that even Moe.ron can argue that. Just recently Jakarta's Australian embassy was bombed. Bali was bombed.

http://cfrterrorism.org/havens/indonesia.html

That link talks more about Indonesia, extremism, and terrorism.

-Rudey

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by Rudey
There is still terrorism there. I don't think that even Moe.ron can argue that. Just recently Jakarta's Australian embassy was bombed. Bali was bombed.

http://cfrterrorism.org/havens/indonesia.html

That link talks more about Indonesia, extremism, and terrorism.

-Rudey

Link a little outdated, but overall somewhat accurate.

What is outdated: Laskar Jihad no longer exist. There was intense pressure from the public against them. Unlike JI, LJ actually cares about their reputation. Ironically, their former leader is now cooperating with the police in gaining inteligence against JI.

What I would argued against:

While Indonesia is known as a secular, tolerant society that practices a moderate form of Islam, radical Islamists have gained momentum.

This was a widely held believe by many terrorist experts in 2001 and 2002. However, many of the experts have little or no knowledge of Indonesian's culture and history. As I mention, the membership in radical Islamic group is not growing.

That said, everything else is pretty much accurate, especially with having poor and corrupt central government. As for a floundering economic, I would say it's more stagnated. It's not floundering, but it's not growing fast enough. LAst I check, the economy is only growing at 3.68%, compare to 10% growth rate prior to the Asian Financial Crisis.

[Rudey]

So is the party membership down but radical Islam up? I mean the thing is that there was just a bombing in Jakarta. Indonesia is not the moderate counter-force to Arab extremists. In fact I bet it's Arab money that is funding much of the schools in Indonesia and the Arab Islam has not only destroyed the middle east but also is in Sudan, Chechnya, in Asian countries and Europe and the US.

-Rudey

Originally posted by moe.ron
Link a little outdated, but overall somewhat accurate.

What is outdated: Laskar Jihad no longer exist. There was intense pressure from the public against them. Unlike JI, LJ actually cares about their reputation. Ironically, their former leader is now cooperating with the police in gaining inteligence against JI.

What I would argued against:



This was a widely held believe by many terrorist experts in 2001 and 2002. However, many of the experts have little or no knowledge of Indonesian's culture and history. As I mention, the membership in radical Islamic group is not growing.

That said, everything else is pretty much accurate, especially with having poor and corrupt central government. As for a floundering economic, I would say it's more stagnated. It's not floundering, but it's not growing fast enough. LAst I check, the economy is only growing at 3.68%, compare to 10% growth rate prior to the Asian Financial Crisis.

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by Rudey
So is the party membership down but radical Islam up? I mean the thing is that there was just a bombing in Jakarta. Indonesia is not the moderate counter-force to Arab extremists. In fact I bet it's Arab money that is funding much of the schools in Indonesia and the Arab Islam has not only destroyed the middle east but also is in Sudan, Chechnya, in Asian countries and Europe and the US.

-Rudey

No, JI is loosing membership. right now JI is split into two factions. One who want to bomb everybody to hell. And the other one that just want to concentrate to making noise. This split might be one of the reason for JI's recent movement when it come to bombing. In essence, there is an internal struggle within the organiztaion. Aside from the other reasons I gave on my other replies.

Never claimed that Indonesia is a moderate counter-force to Arab extremist. As I said, Indonesia's Muslim influence is only in the Southeast Asia region. And you are right, Saudi Arabia is funding some school which espouse Wahabinism. But guess what, there are inteligence officials in those schools monitoring the students and teachers. The problem right now is not at the school. Many of the terrorists received their training during te Afghan war against the Soviet.

Most of the Madrassah in Indonesia are not funded by the Arabs. They are part of the larger network of NU and Muhammadiyah. The two organizatiosn run not only Madrasah, but also regular schools and universities. Unfortunately, Saudi's money has entered madrasah not part of the NU and Muhammadiyah network. These school are the main concerns of BIN and the police. However, they cannot be shut down because they have not violated any Indonesian laws. They are, however, being observed.

[_Opi_]

Originally posted by ktsnake
I guess I wasn't clear in my reply. The gist of my reply was that even if everything she said were true, she was only talking about a certain group of Muslims, not the whole of Islam.

The thing is that these guys were only local leaders. They have no real voice in Islam. They speak only to the religious people that directly follow them.

See the thing is, in Islam, we don't have one muslim leader. We do not have a pope like catholic christians do. Some of the speakers I mentioned are national leaders, and not even influential, but more about discussing and shedding light on issues for muslims and non-muslims. In N. America, we have huge organizations (ISNA, ICNA, ISA, etc) that are more influential. Most of the leaders I assume you're talking about that issue "fatwas" and such, are in fact, local leaders themselves, since they only appeal to those interested in the M.E. affairs and politics, and not western muslims. So I don't think there is anyone who can represent Islam as a whole, because we are too big, so we have to focus on our local/national leaders and do what we can where we live.

As long as there is huge public support for terrorists anywhere in Islam and those people aren't shunned by the rest of the Islamic world (I'm talking about the Palestinians), any Muslim telling me that they don't support terrorism will be baseless in my opinion

what do you mean by "huge public support"? do you mean the Middle east, or are we talking about muslims everywhere. I don't think its fair that you should bunch all muslims in the same category because some muslims do support suicide bombings and what the hamas are doing. This is a political issue in which every muslims have their own opinions about the palestine/Israel issue (aside from suicide bombings and using terror as a means to get through their message) as Americans do with the Iraq/Afghani wars. Do you want every muslim to "shun" palestine and embrace Israel, and only then you can say ALL muslims do not support terrorism?

Again I want to reiterate that Islam has a billion followers, and what we need to find out is the figures for this "radical islam" we are talking about and compare the two.

Rudey,

If you want further proof, go to the local ISNA in your area and pick up some literature.

[Rudey]

I posted an article and you posted your feelings. I post something substantive and you post your personal stories.

In terms of this thread on the growth of radical Islam, I believe that it has grown and has become uncontrollable now and I believe further that Muslims have said little and done nothing to counter it.

-Rudey

Originally posted by _Opi_
See the thing is, in Islam, we don't have one muslim leader. We do not have a pope like catholic christians do. Some of the speakers I mentioned are national leaders, and not even influential, but more about discussing and shedding light on issues for muslims and non-muslims. In N. America, we have huge organizations (ISNA, ICNA, ISA, etc) that are more influential. Most of the leaders I assume you're talking about that issue "fatwas" and such, are in fact, local leaders themselves, since they only appeal to those interested in the M.E. affairs and politics, and not western muslims. So I don't think there is anyone who can represent Islam as a whole, because we are too big, so we have to focus on our local/national leaders and do what we can where we live.



what do you mean by "huge public support"? do you mean the Middle east, or are we talking about muslims everywhere. I don't think its fair that you should bunch all muslims in the same category because some muslims do support suicide bombings and what the hamas are doing. This is a political issue in which every muslims have their own opinions about the palestine/Israel issue (aside from suicide bombings and using terror as a means to get through their message) as Americans do with the Iraq/Afghani wars. Do you want every muslim to "shun" palestine and embrace Israel, and only then you can say ALL muslims do not support terrorism?

Again I want to reiterate that Islam has a billion followers, and what we need to find out is the figures for this "radical islam" we are talking about and compare the two.

Rudey,

If you want further proof, go to the local ISNA in your area and pick up some literature.

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by Rudey
In terms of this thread on the growth of radical Islam, I believe that it has grown and has become uncontrollable now and I believe further that Muslims have said little and done nothing to counter it.

-Rudey

In certain regions, I would agree with you. However, like I've been arguing, it is not the case with every regions in the world. I gave an example of Southeast Asia where radical Islam being contained in term of its membership. However, like all terrorist, all you need is one successful event to show that it should be taken seriously.

I then gave example of NU and Muhammadiyah which has done a lot to counter it in South east Asia. If your thesis relate to the Middle East, I would agree. However, your thesis cannot be a blanket statement of the world.

[_Opi_]

Originally posted by Rudey
I posted an article and you posted your feelings. I post something substantive and you post your personal stories.
-Rudey

Yeah you posted something substantive, if you believe that other people's feelings and experiences are worth more than your own. Hon, it doesn't matter if you think I am posting "feelings", truth of the matter is, I am muslim, and I read alot of things on the issues in MY community and go to events about issues that involve me. I believe your religion was also ostracized at one point in time, am I right?

In terms of this thread on the growth of radical Islam, I believe that it has grown and has become uncontrollable now and I believe further that Muslims have said little and done nothing to counter it.

You posted your feelings. That's a no-no!

[Rudey]

Originally posted by moe.ron
In certain regions, I would agree with you. However, like I've been arguing, it is not the case with every regions in the world. I gave an example of Southeast Asia where radical Islam being contained in term of its membership. However, like all terrorist, all you need is one successful event to show that it should be taken seriously.

I then gave example of NU and Muhammadiyah which has done a lot to counter it in South east Asia. If your thesis relate to the Middle East, I would agree. However, your thesis cannot be a blanket statement of the world.

But really you haven't shown its decline either. There are still bombings (See Jakarta/Australian embassy bombing). There are still people who identify with people as freedom fighters and not as terrorists or suicide murderers or whatever. Those sentiments have not decreased you say. Indonesia still appeals to Islamic terrorists and extremists and it's Indonesia and not all of South East Asia.

And if I say little has been said and done, that is actually a statement that isn't an absolute and fully valid.

-Rudey

[Rudey]

Originally posted by _Opi_
Yeah you posted something substantive, if you believe that other people's feelings and experiences are worth more than your own. Hon, it doesn't matter if you think I am posting "feelings", truth of the matter is, I am muslim, and I read alot of things on the issues in MY community and go to events about issues that involve me. I believe your religion was also ostracized at one point in time, am I right?



You posted your feelings. That's a no-no!

Again when you can post more than personal stories you can be taken seriously in a discussion.

-Rudey

[_Opi_]

Same can be said for you.

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by Rudey
But really you haven't shown its decline either. There are still bombings (See Jakarta/Australian embassy bombing). There are still people who identify with people as freedom fighters and not as terrorists or suicide murderers or whatever. Those sentiments have not decreased you say. Indonesia still appeals to Islamic terrorists and extremists and it's Indonesia and not all of South East Asia.

And if I say little has been said and done, that is actually a statement that isn't an absolute and fully valid.

-Rudey

The bombing does not prove that Jemaah ISlamiyah is gaining membership, neither does it prove that its ideology is gaining ground. Sure there are people who identify with the terrorists, but does it mean that JI membership is increasing?

I would suggest that the recent election is a good indication where Indonesians attitude toward radical Islam lays. The secular parties have won it in an overwhelming manner. The radical parties were only able to garner a very small votes. In fact, they are loosing support to the point that the biggest Islamic party, PPP, has changed itself from being an Islamic party into a conservative nationalist party.

Dr Greg Fealy, a research fellow in Indonesian politics at the Department of Political and Social Change Research, School of Pacific and Asian Studies, at the Australian National University, Canberra, made the following statement about the repercussion about the bombing:

Bombings such as yesterday's alienate Indonesian Muslims, making it more difficult for JI to achieve its goal of moving towards an Islamic state for Indonesia.

and

there will be renewed revulsion within the Islamic community to the bombing, which will strengthen support among Indonesians for the strong anti-terrorism measures that have been taken already by the Indonesian Government.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by _Opi_
Same can be said for you.

Again, please look at the articles, links, names, statistics, facts that I've posted. Again, please look at your personal stories.

-Rudey
--No match

[Rudey]

You're right. I'm not talking about JI's membership only.

The bombings still occur and people are still calling many of these terrorists freedom fighters and can't seem to break emotional loyalties for logic and truth.

Indonesia still is not a safe-haven for moderates and it's still only one country in South East Asia.

I really do wish that Indonesia would reject all these acts and become a new powerhouse. There is absolutely no reason for me not to want that you see.

-Rudey

Originally posted by moe.ron
The bombing does not prove that Jemaah ISlamiyah is gaining membership, neither does it prove that its ideology is gaining ground. Sure there are people who identify with the terrorists, but does it mean that JI membership is increasing?

I would suggest that the recent election is a good indication where Indonesians attitude toward radical Islam lays. The secular parties have won it in an overwhelming manner. The radical parties were only able to garner a very small votes. In fact, they are loosing support to the point that the biggest Islamic party, PPP, has changed itself from being an Islamic party into a conservative nationalist party.

Dr Greg Fealy, a research fellow in Indonesian politics at the Department of Political and Social Change Research, School of Pacific and Asian Studies, at the Australian National University, Canberra, made the following statement about the repercussion about the bombing:



and