Do you or do you not?

[RACooper]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
True, but this line of comments began when someone (don't remember who for sure) said that the people in this prison were there because they were trying to kill Americans. That apparantely is not true, or at least can't be proven at all, for 70% of them.

But I think it's a statistical likelyhood that some of those "innocent" folks were treated pretty badly. There lies the problem.

Had you been falsly arrested (or even mistakenly) and subjected to rigorous interrogation, you probably wouldn't be much of a happy camper in the end either.

I believe the last part of your statement touches on one of the more important things to consider about this whole thing... yes the Red Cross and Taguba both site 70-90%. Now if you only take into account Abu whatever and it's roughly 7500 "detainees", how many were not anti-coalition or anti-US when they first were detained?

Now after the treatment they recieved how many are going to be now? Culturally the shaming that they or their family endured has to be avenged if they are to save some face... or on another level they now have a personally beef with the coalition.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by RACooper
I believe the last part of your statement touches on one of the more important things to consider about this whole thing... yes the Red Cross and Taguba both site 70-90%. Now if you only take into account Abu whatever and it's roughly 7500 "detainees", how many were not anti-coalition or anti-US when they first were detained?

Now after the treatment they recieved how many are going to be now? Culturally the shaming that they or their family endured has to be avenged if they are to save some face... or on another level they now have a personally beef with the coalition.

So you've done a mass psychoanalysis using your vast experience in the field?

-Rudey

[justamom]

One point I think many of us (myself included) don't give enough credence to is the import of our actions. This is not a Holy War...yet. We are fighting "terrorists". Yet, with each innocent that is killed or maimed, anger grows and Muslims unite. Nationalities are of course important, but weigh that against religion and it is dwarfed. We must avoid any actions that unify Muslims (with the blessings of our enemies) against us, in my opinion. I do think we are OK-JUST "OK" at this point, but if missteps and foul conduct continue to surface, we will go from the fire straight into the frying pan.

There are many different religions in this world. A warrior nation defined by religious beliefs is frightening to me.

The Top Dozen Organized Religions of the World
Religion: Members:
Christianity 2 Billion
Islam 1.2 Billion
Hinduism 785 Million
Buddhism 360 Million
Judaism 17 Million
Sikhism 16 Million
Baha'i 5 Million
Confucianism 5 Million
Jainism 4 Million
Shintoism 3 Million
Wicca .7 Million
Zoroastrianism .2 Million

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
So you've done a mass psychoanalysis using your vast experience in the field?

-Rudey

Actually it's based on the cultural primer that I was given before going to the former Yugoslavia.... you know a brief run down of differing cultures, thier customs and practices, histories and current politics. It was a series of seminars for all the troops going over, given by previous troops, and "experts" from academia and other militaries; mostly they spent their time correcting media and personal misconceptions or preconeptions.....

[Rudey]

Originally posted by RACooper
Actually it's based on the cultural primer that I was given before going to the former Yugoslavia.... you know a brief run down of differing cultures, thier customs and practices, histories and current politics. It was a series of seminars for all the troops going over, given by previous troops, and "experts" from academia and other militaries; mostly they spent their time correcting media and personal misconceptions or preconeptions.....

How long was your primer? Did they award a PhD at the end of the primer?

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally posted by justamom
There are many different religions in this world. A warrior nation defined by religious beliefs is frightening to me.

Very true... after-all look at the damage that was caused by the crusades; attacks on non-christian nations and the institution of progoms directed against non-christians.

The closest modern history has seen to a war based on religion is one between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, whose ideologies were pseudo-religious.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
How long was your primer? Did they award a PhD at the end of the primer?

-Rudey

It was part of the three months prep training, usually ever afternoon from 1-5pm Monday to Friday. At the end of it they patted us on the back as we got on the flight to Europe....

[_Opi_]

Originally posted by ktsnake
Well, in that case, no. I don't condemn what we did to Iraqi prisoners. If that is indeed what military intelligence and CIA types think needs to be done in order to extract information, fine, I'm on board.

The dumb-f***s with cameras should be locked up for a long time though. Idiots.

We're in a war. One where information saves lives. You aren't going to get that information by being all nicey-nice. The folks we capture are generally folks that want us dead. So yes, making life a little uncomfortable for them is not a big deal in my mind.

While they are being humiliated, etc., their comrades are beheading our civilians and killing our soldiers.

Once they've crossed that line, in my opinion, they've thrown away any right to fairness, prosperity, or comort that they had previously enjoyed. Screw 'em.

Hmmmm, America is supposed to be "morally-superior" (according to rumsfeld) than any other nation. America, after all, stands of democracy ..right? well, let the soldiers keep violating BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS of POWs...while they smile for the camera. After all, this is war. KTSnake, if you look at the timeline, you will notice that the abuses of Abu Guraib occured BEFORE the beheading (which I absolutely, and without condition condemn), so your premise is way off. I think leadership in this country is corrupt (starting from the Bush and Co...all the way down to the Military). I sure hope that all people responsible will be prosecuted for their war crimes.


My heart goes out to all the abused and raped Iraqi men and women, as well as those bombed at their own wedding.

KTsnake, look at the pictures again. Do not tell me its justified! No one, criminal or not, deserves to be smeared with shit, made to eat pork and drink wine (knowing fully well its againt thier religion), beaten, tortured, raped and humiliated like that. How sick can they GET?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by _Opi_
Hmmmm, America is supposed to be "morally-superior" (according to rumsfeld) than any other nation. America, after all, stands of democracy ..right? well, let the soldiers keep violating BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS of POWs...while they smile for the camera. After all, this is war. KTSnake, if you look at the timeline, you will notice that the abuses of Abu Guraib occured BEFORE the beheading (which I absolutely, and without condition condemn), so your premise is way off. I think leadership in this country is corrupt (starting from the Bush and Co...all the way down to the Military). I sure hope that all people responsible will be prosecuted for their war crimes.


My heart goes out to all the abused and raped Iraqi men and women, as well as those bombed at their own wedding.

KTsnake, look at the pictures again. Do not tell me its justified! No one, criminal or not, deserves to be smeared with shit, made to eat pork and drink wine (knowing fully well its againt thier religion), beaten, tortured, raped and humiliated like that. How sick can they GET?

I love people like you. They are stupid as stupid comes but I'll let ktsnake and some others chew on you.

-Rudey

[_Opi_]

Rudey,

The feeling is mutual How about you chew on that!

[Rudey]

Originally posted by _Opi_
Rudey,

The feeling is mutual How about you chew on that!

You're stupid...really really stupid. That's not a feeling...get it?

-Rudey

[justamom]

IT WASN'T A WEDDING!

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by _Opi_
My heart goes out to all the abused and raped Iraqi men and women.

Did your heart go out them when they were living under a genocidal regime? I doubt it.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
Did your heart go out them when they were living under a genocidal regime? I doubt.

Of course not...she was busy being an apologist for the women that were getting raped and all the honor killings because that's just OK in her book. But then again, she's an idiot.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally posted by justamom
IT WASN'T A WEDDING!

Then why can't Cent. Com get it story straight....

First they claimed that military aircraft on patrol recieved hositle fire, and they responded with deadly force.

Next it comes out that they had been monitoring the location as a crossing point for foreign fighters, and an attack was made to exploit favourable conditions.

Next we here that it was a planned attack involving ground and air forces, to neutralize the threat posed by foreign fighters.

FOX News reports one side, Al Jazerra reports the opposite... the truth is most likely in the middle. Sure the site could have been a site used by foreign fighters crossing into Iraq, but that doesn't mean that any gather of people is related to that activity. In a war were intelligence relys on "native" intel. then local feuds and personal power plays may be made (see Chibali).... any mistake can be extremely dangerous to the public perception (whether justified or not) of the coalition forces, and therefore care must be taken in any action taken; unfortunately the sharp option is too often chosen by the US forces (which is what the latest leaked Brit memo expressed concern over).