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  #46  
Old 12-14-2003, 09:02 PM
enlightenment06 enlightenment06 is offline
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and why are the soldiers dying in Iraq? Because Saddam Hussein had WMD's? Which we really have no clue if they really exist. How can you justify that to a dead soldier's family? Every day more soldiers are getting killed, and why? Because Bush doesn't want to turn control over to the U.N., because the U.S. has to be the "top dog."

Look, I'm from NYC, and we have alot of roaches in NYC. When there's a problem with roaches, everyone knows you can't solve the problem by trying to kill them all, it just doesn't work. You think they're gone and they're not. What you have to do is figure out where the roaches are coming from and then alleviate the problem that way. Using our troops to run around the world shooting people isn't going to make anyone safer. Violence begets more violence.
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  #47  
Old 12-14-2003, 09:13 PM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by enlightenment06
and why are the soldiers dying in Iraq? Because Saddam Hussein had WMD's? Which we really have no clue if they really exist. How can you justify that to a dead soldier's family? Every day more soldiers are getting killed, and why? Because Bush doesn't want to turn control over to the U.N., because the U.S. has to be the "top dog."

Look, I'm from NYC, and we have alot of roaches in NYC. When there's a problem with roaches, everyone knows you can't solve the problem by trying to kill them all, it just doesn't work. You think they're gone and they're not. What you have to do is figure out where the roaches are coming from and then alleviate the problem that way. Using our troops to run around the world shooting people isn't going to make anyone safer. Violence begets more violence.
The UN had its shot.. it had several shots. Each time the UN blew it. The UN ignored violations of its own law, slapping Iraq on the wrist each time. When Bush and company perceived this nation to be a threat (and who wouldn't with their past aggressive history?), they did the right thing in going in to take care of business. Did it save lives? Was it a good idea? Ask the thousands of Iraqis dancing in the streets this morning.

I don't think you can bribe roaches or promise them a more comfortable lifestyle. I don't think roaches really care about these things. Nice analogy, but that really won't fly. I don't think it was ever the United States' policy to "kill 'em all". They're just handing Iraq back to the people that inhabit it and making it a country that can really contribute in the region and in the global community.

I think it's the tendancy of both sides of the argument to oversimplify the situation and base their arguments on false pretenses and suppositions. As civilians, we really don't know what the folks in charge know. Some of us still have some trust in the government. To this point they haven't been proven to be conclusively wrong in this area. In fact there is quite a body of evidence in Iraq to suggest that there were weapons at some point. To believe that someone like Saddam would have secretly destroyed them is laughable.

In the end, I think our presence there will be well justified.
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Last edited by Kevin; 12-15-2003 at 12:00 AM.
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  #48  
Old 12-14-2003, 09:30 PM
PhiPsiRuss PhiPsiRuss is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by enlightenment06
and why are the soldiers dying in Iraq? Because Saddam Hussein had WMD's? Which we really have no clue if they really exist. How can you justify that to a dead soldier's family? Every day more soldiers are getting killed, and why? Because Bush doesn't want to turn control over to the U.N., because the U.S. has to be the "top dog."

Look, I'm from NYC, and we have alot of roaches in NYC. When there's a problem with roaches, everyone knows you can't solve the problem by trying to kill them all, it just doesn't work. You think they're gone and they're not. What you have to do is figure out where the roaches are coming from and then alleviate the problem that way. Using our troops to run around the world shooting people isn't going to make anyone safer. Violence begets more violence.
We are not in Iraq for WMD. We are not in Iraq for money. We are in Iraq, believe it or not, because 9-11 was a huge wakeup call. That region needs to be transformed. We got off light on 9-11. If a nuclear weapon could have been used, it would have. Look at a map. Our approach to the War on Terror is geopolitical.

Iraq may have had nothing directly to do with 9-11, but they have done many things before, and after that warranted intervention. After 9-11, Iraq started to pump money into Jihadist groups that recruit from Palestinian camps. They cranked up their propaganda machine in the region. They made it very difficult for the US to assert the point that state support for the madrasses that teach hatred towards the US is unacceptable. They were proactive in promoting concepts that the US is responsible for every bad thing that happens in that region, including potholes and broken street lights (no joke.) But worst of all, they were genocidal.

Personally, I am still ashamed that the U.S. did nothing about Rwanda in 1994. And I am ashamed that we did nothing about Iraq. There are few nations on this planet that are genocidal. Iraq was one. The UN has consistently proved incompetent when dealing with genocidal regimes. It was in the first week of March of this year when Eli Weisel, the Nobel Peace Prize winning authority on genocide, met with President Bush and asked him to do what was needed to remove the Baathists. If for no other reason than genocide, the war was a noble and just war.

But like all wars, this one was not fought for just one reason. There was the moral imperative to remove a genocidal regime. There was also a geopolitical need to place an independent democracy right in the middle of the problem nations. Does anyone think that Iran is happy to border a pro-US Afghanistan and a pro-US Iraq? Does the Saudi Royal Family like having an educated, and pluralistic democracy next door? How happy is Syria seeing their neighboring authoritarian state become an open democracy? Look at a map, and becomes very obvious.

So why was WMD even brought up? Because Tony Blair needed the cover of a UN sanctioned path in. WMD was not brought up to deceive the American people, and the truth is that all intelligence agencies of all nations that we have intelligence sharing agreements with believed that Iraq had WMD. The WMD argument may have been false, but it was not intentionally false.

With, or without, the WMD argument, there was a synergy of motivating factors to go in. We went in, and the job is being done. I am very proud the the US went into Iraq, and I am very proud that fewer innocent Iraqi civilians will die from the combined efforts of the Baathist regime, and from collateral damage in 2003 then died at the hands of the Baathist regime in 2002.

After all, Al Qaeda is still attacking, but don't you think that they would rather kill innocent Americans on American soil, than innocent Muslims on Arabian soil? And as a New Yorker who lives a 5 minute walk from the World Trade Center site, I know that I am safer today because of the current administration's efforts.

We did the right thing. We did the necessary thing.
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  #49  
Old 12-14-2003, 09:56 PM
Rudey Rudey is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by enlightenment06
and why are the soldiers dying in Iraq? Because Saddam Hussein had WMD's? Which we really have no clue if they really exist. How can you justify that to a dead soldier's family? Every day more soldiers are getting killed, and why? Because Bush doesn't want to turn control over to the U.N., because the U.S. has to be the "top dog."

Look, I'm from NYC, and we have alot of roaches in NYC. When there's a problem with roaches, everyone knows you can't solve the problem by trying to kill them all, it just doesn't work. You think they're gone and they're not. What you have to do is figure out where the roaches are coming from and then alleviate the problem that way. Using our troops to run around the world shooting people isn't going to make anyone safer. Violence begets more violence.
The US is top dog. It has been for a bit and will be for a while. Nobody claims it will be forever and odds are that at the very least the US will have another superpower in the world within 20 years. The US has recognized that and is aligning itself with a whole new set of countries that matter because of it. In terms of the UN, the UN is worthless and has been forever. Why? Because the power of the UN is derived from its member nations and when member nations choose to ignore certain rules (say the recent clear violations of nuclear treaties in Iran) the UN is worthless. Also the UN had pretty much legally authorized this war last I checked from the first Gulf war.

Why should the US turn over control to the UN? This is an argument made that I don't understand quite yet. Lives will be lost - none of it is dependent on which country or organization is in there. I guess spreading the pain helps people forget? The US is capable - there are areas in which it can attract other countries which are much more capable, but it can do so outside of UN control.

In terms of death, let's play a numbers game. Put aside emotions. In this world emotions are worthless. They fade and nobody remembers. You go into a war knowing the risk you're taking and if you die, you might be missed - but only for a while. Nobody cries for you. Sad, no? How many allied troops are in Iraq? How many allied deaths have occured in Iraq ? Well the percentage is very low. Now if this is about life and death - then how about the mass graves of thousands of Shiites massacred? The Kurds who breathed chemicals that melted their lungs? Villages that were starved off intentionally? Are their lives worth less than a US soldier's? And nobody will deny Iraqi civilian deaths in Iraq but the number is just impossible to compare to the numbers that Saddam killed and would have killed.

I don't care why the US went in and I'll be honest about that. I care simply that Saddam is no longer in power. I also care that Iraq is weakened and with it a whole system of Arab dictators felt the pain. I care that a country that attacked my home and started a war that killed over a million people - a war in which children walked across mine fields because there weren't enough weapons - is no longer able to do that. And right now I only hope that the US doesn't leave because that would lead to so many problems and if it does leave will the criticism stop? Will countries that are doomed to a slow death in Western Europe say bad things still? The country can be repaired in time.

-Rudey
--Everyone dies.

Last edited by Rudey; 12-14-2003 at 10:04 PM.
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  #50  
Old 12-15-2003, 12:04 AM
DeltAlum DeltAlum is offline
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I'm pretty disgusted that this has turned into a political debate.

The Military which, the last time I checked, consists of Republicans and Democrats, Liberals and Conservatives, Men and Women, Christians and Jews and Muslems and Hindus and probably all other relgions just caught one of the most dangerous men in all of history.

That has nothing to do with who is the President and who wants to be.

Whether the reasons for this war were or were not just, a part of the mission has been completed and that is what we should be happy for and commenting on.

Judging this in the light of US politics at this point makes me ill.

Calling or implying that people we don't know well are "ignorant" -- or any permutation of that -- always makes me ill.
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  #51  
Old 12-15-2003, 12:10 AM
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honeychile honeychile is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeltAlum
I'm pretty disgusted that this has turned into a political debate.

The Military which, the last time I checked, consists of Republicans and Democrats, Liberals and Conservatives, Men and Women, Christians and Jews and Muslems and Hindus and probably all other relgions just caught one of the most dangerous men in all of history.

That has nothing to do with who is the President and who wants to be.

Whether the reasons for this war were or were not just, a part of the mission has been completed and that is what we should be happy for and commenting on.

Judging this in the light of US politics at this point makes me ill.

Calling or implying that people we don't know well are "ignorant" -- or any permutation of that -- always makes me ill.
Thank you!

This is not the time to be bickering about politics. It's about supporting our military!
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