"Christian" Org's vs. GLO's

[adduncan]

Originally posted by BobraFCD
For example, Dec. 25 is the birthday of the Sun God Ra. Constantine combined the celebration of Ra with the celebration of birth of Christ. We know from the Bible that Jesus was likely born around what we know as September or October. Remember that the ancient Hebrew calendar is different from ours.

Likewise, the day of worship, the Sabbath was a Saturday and it was changed to Sunday (named again after pagan god Ra). It goes on an on...it's actually quite fascinating when you study history...

You still didn't quote your source. (As in name the book, page numbers, etc)

Ra was an *Egyptian* diety. Constantine was Roman and before he converted followed a system that was a blend of the traditional Roman polytheistic system, Mithraism, and pagan magic that developed much later than that of ancient Egypt. Ra has nothing to do with it.

December 25 also has nothing to do with Ra. It was a miscalculation based on several interpretations of Luke's Gospel. A very detailed analysis of this subject is in the Catholic Encyclopedia. (You read it, right?)
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

[MTSUGURL]

If you don't mean to offend - don't. I am assuming that you are an intelligent person that can word your thoughts in such a way that they don't offend. This is a thread about relations between GLOs and Christian orgs. It is not a place for any denomination or religion to be attacked.

Originally posted by BobraFCD
The issue people have with Roman Catholicism is that it isn't Biblical. I don't mean to offend Catholics because most are only doing what they've been taught. And many Catholics are taught not to read the Bible for themselves.

That's the danger of religions-they are man-made junk. The Book of Revelation has letters to the seven churches, one of them the church of Rome (Catholicism). It talks of the offense God has with all the religious figureheads who lead people astray. It's not just Catholicism either. All churches fall short of what the Bible says, because human reasoning and ego get in the way. Catholicism is one of the more obvious targets because they are the biggest organization and their anti-Bible doctrine is so blatant. I could give you a laundry list of Catholic doctrine that is unbiblical ie (Matt 23:9 -Call no man Father (in context to religious figures) but God) If you want to learn the inside scoop on Catholicism and it's history, go to www.chick.com and get a the Alberto Series. An autiobiographical account of a former Jesuit priest , Alberto Riviera ,who exposes all corruption and un-Biblical doctrine in Catholocism.

Christ never said, make religions after me--He said, to follow his commandments, obey the Word of God and be disciples--i.e. examples of the Word.

Many of us Christians don't even know our own history. Here's a link as an example of the pagan origins of Easter. The information in this tract is supported by numerous historical documents including Josephus, the first century historian.


Pagan Origins of Easter

I'm not justifying the tactics and approach the Christians on campus may have taken, just giving some background why they believe Catholicism isn't Christian.

Oh, and don't believe that heretics aren't still being punished. Officials of the Roman Catholic Church are still actively punishing those opposed to their doctrine.It's going on in South American countries as we speak.

[BobraFCD]

Originally posted by Beryana
How? The main centers of Christianity were Jerusalem, Rome, and Antioch. Constantinople didn't come into play until around 330 or so. Jerusalem was also seen as a center only until James died in the 1st Century. Last time I checked, Christianity began with Jesus in Jerusalem, so saying that Ephesus is where Christianity began would be rather false. . . .and wouldn't being Roman in name mean that it was based on teh center in ROME? Rather than Antioch or Jerusalem. . . .

Could I get a list of the books you are referencing so that I might compare them to the books that I am using?

Sarah

I didn't say Ephesus is where Christianity began, I said the roots of Roman Catholocism were birthed out of the doctrine in Ephesus.

Many Roman Catholics believe they are the one true church of Jesus because of their interpretation of a scripture regarding Peter. Non-Catholics don't interpret the scripture that way.

I'm not saying you're good, bad, right or wrong--just giving you an explanation how denominations evolved. I've read about 50 different book studying religious history...

Athenagoras "Legito Pro Christ" Wetzburg, 1777
Catholic Encyclopedia
Dryden "Virgil" London 1709
Duran "The Reformation"
Encyclopedia Britannica
Gieseler, "Ecclesiastical History" Edinburgh 1846
"The Two Babylon"
"Rome in the 19th Century"
"Edinburgh Review" by Martin Luther, 1893
"The Kingdom of Cults" Bethany Fellowship 1977
"Romanism and the Bible" by Perry Rockford
"The Book of Revelation" Pensacola
"History of the Coucnil of Trent" by Sharpi
"History of Philosophy" London, 1687
"De Baptismo" by Tertullian
"Babylon Mystery Religion" by Ralph Woodrow
Complete works of Josephus
Miracle of the Scarlet Thread and Jesus in the Feast of Israel by Richard Booker
A survey of Israel's history--Wood
Halley's Bible Handbook--published by Zondervan
Roman Catholicism - Pastor Steve Harmon
Hebrew and Greek Language, Culture
Torah study by Messianic Jewish Rabbi
2 Year in-depth course on Old Testament prophecy..
Information, interviews from Chicago Archdiocese

There's more, but these have been my favorite resources!
Good luck on your midterms and I look forward to discussing more with you when you have time.

[BobraFCD]

Originally posted by MTSUGURL
It is not a place for any denomination or religion to be attacked.

You didn't read my complete post. A question was raised why some people believe that Catholicism isn't Christian. I have greatly studied religion and how denominations have evolved. I offered an explanation why some people feel that way.

I did not attack anyone's beliefs. Just explained the basis of other's beliefs. Since when is expressing a different perspective necessarily attacking someone else's beliefs?

America was founded on religious freedom--Good Grief--if you can't have a conversation expressing difference of opinions or the history of beliefs or religions, we are pathetic!

[BobraFCD]

Originally posted by Beryana
Constantine worshiped the Roman god, Apollo, not the Egyptian god Ra. . . .and this was supposedly throughout his entire life. . . .


Sarah

Sarah,
You are not reading carefully what I wrote. I did not say Constantine worshipped Ra. I said that as governor, he combined the pagan worship with Christian worship.

Keep in mind that many "gods" had different names in different countries. For example, semiramus was also known as Isis or Venus, depending where you were from.

I propose that we continue this conversation after your midterms. Certainly that is more important than spewing off historical data.

Have a good night!

[Beryana]

I do find it interesting that most of your sources are not even close to being Catholic. . . yet you claim to know so much about the Catholic Church. Have you studied the Council of Nicea? This is what the Council of Ephesus is a continuation of. . .and helped to strengthen those statements of faith solidified in Nicea. Councils are not centers of faith. . .

Did you know that Martin Luther wanted to throw out most of the New AND OLD Testaments because they didn't follow with his views of Christianity? Did you know that there is NOTHING in the Bible to support Sola Scriptura or Sola Fidai (sorry, my Latin is VERY poor - I'm refering to the protestant teaching of Faith Alone).

Think on these and your sources before jumping to conclusions about Catholicism. St. Augustine is a good one as is anything by St. Dominic, Catherine of Sienna, any Dominican for that matter, etc. are good places to start. For lighter reading, I would highly recommend the Catholic Answers website at catholic.com

Sarah

P.S. I apologize for being involved in the severely off-topic discussion going on. I attended a Catholic college as an undergrad and so Greek like and Christianity was never an issue.

[BobraFCD]

Originally posted by adduncan
You still didn't quote your source. (As in name the book, page numbers, etc)

December 25 also has nothing to do with Ra. It was a miscalculation based on several interpretations of Luke's Gospel. A very detailed analysis of this subject is in the Catholic Encyclopedia. (You read it, right?)
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

If you read my later posts, I gave you just a few books to read.

Regarding Dec. 25--that is the Catholic explanation of Dec. 25. It doesn't align with all the other historical documents I researched or the timeframe that the Bible identifies as the true birth of Christ.

I'll tell you what--why don't we continue this conversation in PMs. I'm getting a little sleepy but I'd be happy to continue this conversation and give you all the documentation you want!

Respectfully,
BFCD

[breathesgelatin]

Originally posted by Beryana

Think on these and your sources before jumping to conclusions about Catholicism. St. Augustine is a good one as is anything by St. Dominic, Catherine of Sienna, any Dominican for that matter, etc. are good places to start. For lighter reading, I would highly recommend the Catholic Answers website at catholic.com

I wrote a paper on Catherine of Siena last night... It took me until 5 AM.

[BobraFCD]

Originally posted by Beryana
I do find it interesting that most of your sources are not even close to being Catholic. . . yet you claim to know so much about the Catholic Church. Have you studied the Council of Nicea? .

As a matter of fact I have read Council of Nicea. I have also studied the Catholic Encyclopedia and interviewed priests from the Chicago Archdioces to get their explanation.

I have studied the topic very thoroughly. With all due respect, have you studied thoroughly non-Catholic information?

I'm not jumping to any conclusions or even offering my opinion. For the umpteenth time, someone (way back on page 2 of this thread) didn't understand why some Christians don't believe Catholicism wasn't Christian. I gave an explanation.

I did not say it was good, bad, right, or wrong. Nor did I say it was my opinion. I approached my research without an opinion and with pure intent of understanding how denominations evolved.

I did not attack you or Catholocism. In fact, I said that no church was perfect and all churches have their hits and misses.

I will unsubscribe to this thread so that the rest of the chat room can move on. If you or anyone else would like to continue this conversation, please PM me.

[Beryana]

Originally posted by BobraFCD
Sarah,
You are not reading carefully what I wrote. I did not say Constantine worshipped Ra. I said that as governor, he combined the pagan worship with Christian worship.

Keep in mind that many "gods" had different names in different countries. For example, semiramus was also known as Isis or Venus, depending where you were from.

I propose that we continue this conversation after your midterms. Certainly that is more important than spewing off historical data.

Have a good night!

One can only assume that you were alledging Constantine worshiped Ra as you were mentioning both in the same breath. . .Constantine actually ended up being Roman Emperor, not just governor. . .

With regards to different names for possibly the same gods, Greek and Roman are the most similar. . .Egyptian (and most others) were more different. You cannot tell me that Thor and Zeus are exactly the same, just different names. . . thus you cannot say the same for Ra and Apollo. And if you are talking about Roman wouldn't it make more sense to use the Roman names unless you are stating the person was definitely involved in the Cult of Isis, Mithraism, Dionyseus/Bacchus. These are distinct cults which were in Rome. Also, Roman Emperors were tolerant of other religions as they were specific to a region/people. Christianity, on the other hand very quickly crossed cultural lines and was affecting all parts of the Empire. It was also seen as a bothersome sect of Judaism.

With regards to combining paganism and Christianity, that's not true. Going back to the issue of the day of worship being on Sunday - it's three days after the Jewish Sabbath which begins at sundown on Friday. We KNOW that Jesus rose from the dead three days after he died. If anyone changed the day of worship if was Jesus. . . .

Anyway, I have most of my studying done now for my 2pm mid-term. . .now, just have to concentrate on Parliament and Feudalism!

Sarah

[Beryana]

Originally posted by BobraFCD
I approached my research without an opinion and with pure intent of understanding how denominations evolved.

Here is the impass. We are studying two different things. I'm studying theology and you are studying sectionalism.

By the way, I HAVE studied non-Catholic and non-Christian sources, sociology, anthropology, philosophy, theology, mythology, etc. I also have studied enough of any of the social sciences to know that two sources are not enough to say that you know enough on a subject to argue it. I still highly recommend reading the Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church, etc to really get a good idea about Catholicism - and basically you are also saying that all Eastern Orthodox (Russian, Greek, etc) churches are also not Christian as they have almost the exact same faith as Catholics so (and by Catholics I mean Roman, Russian, Armanian, etc). Something to think about. To understand a faith, study its theology and its early leaders. . . .


Sarah

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by Beryana
Praying for the dead is actually in the Bible (I can get you the exact reference).[/URL]

Either First of Second Maccabees, I think -- one of the so-called "apocryphal" books of the Old Testament that are accepted as canonical by Roman Catholics, some Anglicans and (I think) the Orthodox, but are generally not accepted by Protestants (or, I think, Jews.) That's why some Protestants and Roman Catholics can get into a "it's-in-the-Bible" "no-it-ain't" match on this subject.

[GPhiLlama]

Pssst....

Pssst...

(Alberto, the disgruntled priest in the Chick strips, was in jail for fraud at the time he was supposedly in the seminary. Hmmmmm...)

And I'm a recovering Catholic atheist at a Jesuit uni, in fact I'm living with a very Catholic roomie.

*Shrug* Just saying that I support Catholicism. No reason to be going to school here if I didn't.

[zchi2]

Originally posted by Beryana

Did you know that Martin Luther wanted to throw out most of the New AND OLD Testaments because they didn't follow with his views of Christianity? Did you know that there is NOTHING in the Bible to support Sola Scriptura or Sola Fidai (sorry, my Latin is VERY poor - I'm refering to the protestant teaching of Faith Alone).

This right here is proof why agruing about religion is sooooo difficult because nearly every book you read about ANY history is going to be bias. I went to a Lutheran school for 5 years and I'm sure I don't have to say that I was taught why Martin Luther separated from the Catholic church. They pounded that information in our heads every single year.... There was a day of celebration just for what he did. I'm sure the information that was told to you made Martin Luther seem like satan himself and my school made the Catholic Church seem like satan also. People are going to interpret the bible a MILLION different ways and they are going to naturally think that they are the only ones right. So when people talk against your religion, you shouldn't get offended as long as you feel YOU are right with God.

It's funny that I heard sooooooo many Catholic people tell me that they were NOT Christian. So are you or not?

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by BobraFCD
Don't kill the messenger here--I was just giving information on why many people feel Catholicism isn't Christian. I provided a list of things (direct from the Catholic Encyclopedia) that were implemented long after the Bible was written....

No one has any need to kill the messenger, here. I don't mean to offend, but your own posts are doing quite an adequate job on their own.

It is clear that the sources you have been reading are not at all objective, but were written with a clear anti-Catholic bias. For that matter, there appears to be a bias against that is not Fundamentalist, whether Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and historical Prostentantism -- since some of the "issues" you mention -- take infant baptism, for example -- are practiced by the vast majority of Christians, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant alike.

I'd be happy to give you a list of non-Biblical RomanCatholic doctrine instituted by man:...
Tradition granted equal authority with the Bible (1545 AD)
As I mentioned, no church is perfect, but the Bible instructs us not to add or take away from the Word....

Actually, not to get bogged down in details, but John instructed the churches not add or take away from what he wrote in Revelation. He certainly wasn't talking about "the Bible" since the Bible wasn't in existence yet when he wrote.

And since you have studied so much, I'm sure that you know that the Church did not decide which books should be included in the New Testament for a few centuries -- indeed, there was no understanding of "the Bible" as such for a few centuries. So how did the Church transmit the teachings of the apostles? By teaching them, handing them down from one generation to another, until the final decision could be made as to what writings comported with those teachings and should be considered Scripture. That's what the Roman Catholic Church (and the Anglicans and the Orthodox and others) mean by "Tradition" -- not "the way we've always done it," but the teaching of the apostles that has been handed down from generation to generation, some in written form (Scripture) and some in oral form.

You didn't read my complete post. A question was raised why some people believe that Catholicism isn't Christian. I have greatly studied religion and how denominations have evolved. I offered an explanation why some people feel that way.

No, you said "Catholicism is not Biblical, and here's why." Quite a difference between that and "some people think...."

And for the record, I've been a Presbyterian all of my life.