RU-486

[Diva_56]

No problen and thank you BrandNubian, it is always good to see what others think on a topic...

[BrandNubian]

Originally posted by MIDWESTDIVA:

I ask this question because a lot of times Christians (me included) pick out certain sins to crusade against, such as abortion or homosexuality. However there are many others sins that we commit every day, for whatever reason these seem to go unnoticed. I'm not trying to make anyone angry here, I just like this discussion. I also don't mind anyone turning this into a "Bible Study". Last time I checked, Bible study has never hurt anyone.

MidwestDiva:

First of all, I would like to say thanx for sharing your story. *hug*.

Second of all, in regards to your message above, I am totally in agreeance. I think this happens all the time. People focus on these one or two crusades, and other "ills" or "sins" are totally overlooked. I am not making references to anyone in particular, just saying I understand the point you are trying to make, as I have been in situations like that on more than one occasion.

Peace Love and Progression
B.N.

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"I thought making a record and receiving some form of public affirmation would bring me the love I desired in my life, only to find that what I wanted no one could give, and what I searched for lived in my heart waiting to be discovered."
-Me'shell Ndegeocello

[BrandNubian]

Originally posted by AlwaysDivine:
There are many faiths and philosophies in the world.

AlwaysDivine:

I must agree with you on this one. People come from all sorts of spiritual/ethical backgrounds. And while some person may not believe the same thing that another person does, it doesn't mean that somebody is necessarily wrong. Thanx for putting that out there.

B.N.


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"I thought making a record and receiving some form of public affirmation would bring me the love I desired in my life, only to find that what I wanted no one could give, and what I searched for lived in my heart waiting to be discovered."
-Me'shell Ndegeocello

[Diva_56]

I personally have decided to be celibate until marriage. I have a fiance that totally understands where I am coming from with this issue. Of course my spirit has lead me to this. As with others, I DO tell them that premarital sex is indeed sin, and try to be understanding with them (friends, relatives etc.) because I wasn't always saved, and know how hard it is without the Holy Spirit to guide you (It's hard with the Spirit sometimes. ) The Devil is always trying to throw something on your lap...

[This message has been edited by Diva_56 (edited October 05, 2000).]

[Ania]

First, please let me say that, regardless of how touchy this issue is, I'm glad that black women are expressing themselves on this issue because it is without a doubt important.

Me By Nature,
Wow, don't be thin skinned, I did not post my facts and thoughts to offend anyone. It's just too many times people make assumptions or pass judgement on people, when they have no place and/or when it is not their job(especially since humans are not perfect) to throw stones.

My intent was to type up a post that would open people's eyes, if they did not have an idea. I do not post things that are rude, ignorant, or to offend people, that takes AWAY the focus from my main point.
Like I said before(and please throw out versus if there are any), if there is anything that refers to "abortion" in the bible and please do not offend me or waste my time by questioning my faith and bond with god(That is between the great one and I), let me know where I can look.
But from my research, with ministers and my paster(at bible study, by the way), there was no reference.

Not to mention, the issue of when a fetus becomes a baby is quite unclear, some people believe that right after incourse or once the sperm meets the egg, then there is a baby. So that in itself is complicating.

But I will say this, sometimes we need to be aware of our priviledges; we have loving families that took(or still take) good care of us. But I feel, if a child is going to be born to a severe drug addict, be found in a garbage bin, or physically or psychologically abused, don't have any.

Someone on the board asks, do pro-choice supporters support pre-marital sex. That's an interesting question. Life is about choices and if we lived in a perfect world, maybe abortions and pre-marital sex wouldn't exist.

Last, I will say this, I don't want women dying because they didn't have a choice and they had to get an illegal abortion. I don't want a married women becoming suicidal because her and her husband gave birth to a dead child that had no brains or who's organs developed on the outside of it's poor body. Like I said, life is about choices, some you agree with, some you don't, but that person has to have a choice.

[Me By Nature]

thinskinned?????????? I was merely making myself clear and didn't realize that I appeared thinskinned. This is a discussion in which we take different stands I (or anyone else) have no reason to be offended, sorry if you took it that way.

<<Mid>> As I stated in one of my post, I live with my boyfriend and am well aware that it is wrong. Yes, there are battles that I must overcome just like everyone else.

[AKA_Monet]

There are sooooo many posts on this topic and it's amazing to see African American women discussing this topic. I would like to thank those who are explaining the exact molecular mechanisms that underlie the properties of RU 486. I myself am a Ph.D. molecular genetics scientist doing cholesterol research. I am planning to switch my research into diabetes, arthritis or some other interesting molecular phenomena.

What interests me about this drug is that like someone said previously, is blocks the ability for the umbilical cord to form completely, so implantation doesn't properly occur and signals to the pituitary and other organs regulating the menstural cycle that the pregnancy has gone arwy and so the woman miscarries or spontaneously aborts the embryo/ fetus.

At the molecular genetic level of conception, many researchers are very fuzzy on the entire topic. At best, they have determined how the sperm penetrates the egg. Okay since I teach the non majors bio course at my university, it goes like this: How does a half of a cell "break-into" another half cell ? I call these half cells because they only have half the genetic information required for a living cell. So why does cloning work? That's a totally different topic and unrelated to the RU 486 affects.

As far as the political implications go, RU 486 regulates progesterone affects on cholesterol metabolism. I t can also be used as a very potent cholesterol regulator drug. Maybe the men that approved this drug are trying to save themselves from their athersclerotic heart disease...

And as a Pan Afrikanist I do have to ask, how are women of Afrikan descent really affected by this drug? As far as I can see, I do see way too many black kids or kids of color running around . The population of white births are rather low compared to that of children of color... Think about it--is this the wave of eugenics and population control???

[Shalom2U]

Shalom Everyone~

What do I think about [Are You For 86?]?
I think NO!

I too, like AKA_Monet see this beyond a pro-choice situation....I guess I'm still upset with the Coon Issue that took place at my church to see beyond the possibility of an ethnic wipe out somewhere in this thing.

Eclipse, I agree with your position and I commend you for your posting, not because I am holier then anyone, but because I too, like MIDWESTDIVA, aborted my child...I don't mind sharing it because it is a fact and it is the truth. The only explanation I can give anyone when asked, "Why" is "I was selfish".
I'm not saying that is the reason for anyone else...that is mine...I was selfish.

I disagree with Ania regarding abortions not causing psychological damage...I beg to differ. Psychological damage/Condemnation...
same difference if you've been there and done that! And I'm not just speaking for myself...I speak for the many women to whom I minister and counsel with as they come to the Church needing to heal and be made whole.

You see, I shoved the sight and the sounds of that day and the days leading up to the death of my child so far away in my mind's closet until I had convinced myself that my child was only 32 clumps of cells....Until I surrendered to Jesus Christ and made HIM LORD of my life-----completely LORD over my life!

~HE (Jesus) was there when all the guilt, the pain and the pictures in my mind came up like vomit!
~He was there when I accepted the fact that by HIS BLOOD, I stood clean.
~He was there when I agreed with HIM that the Psalmist David was right when he was inspired to write Psalm 139:13-16.

This psalm reminds us that:
*It is God who forms our inward parts.
*It is God who hovers over us in the
womb.
*It is God whose work is in the making.
*It is God who knows each molecule of
our frames.
*It is God whose eyes carefully watch
our "unformed substance" take human
shape.
*It is God who, from the very beginning
planned the days of our lives before
we were born.
It is easy for some to dismiss the unborn child as mere tissue without independent life or meaning. David's awed contemplation on the mystery of birth makes it hard for the Christian to as easily dismiss God's role in the creation of a child. *Taken from Larry Richards~The Personal Growth Study Bible NKJ Version.

I don't have an answer for the woman/girl of rape or incest...I do know of a woman who is the product of both (I speak the truth)! And she has allowed the LORD to use her and her life story to help other women. Her mother (whom I haven't met) had to be strong to endure such horrible act and bring forth a child...a child that is now a Mighty Woman of GOD!

I say strong because I fell short of being strong. But I praise the LORD that out of it I have an experienced-compassion for those women who have made the decision of abortion for whatever reason...I'm just there to up pick them up and walk with them
and let them experience the Love of our LORD, Christ Jesus!

Shalom

[MIDWESTDIVA]

Brand Nubian, thank you for the *hug*


Originally posted by AKA_Monet:

And as a Pan Afrikanist I do have to ask, how are women of Afrikan descent really affected by this drug? As far as I can see, I do see way too many black kids or kids of color running around . The population of white births are rather low compared to that of children of color... Think about it--is this the wave of eugenics and population control???

Do you think this is what RU486 is really about? Couldn't the same things also be said about Norplant, Depo Provera or birth control pills? Do you think that this pill will increase the number of abortions African American and Latino women undergo?


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We often give our enemies the means for our own destruction.

Aesop c550 BC

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by MIDWESTDIVA:
Eclipse, thank you for the (((cyberhugg)))!


I'm just curious. How many of our pro-life Greekchatters condone pre-marital sex? When I say condone, I mean the Webster's Dictionary definition which is:

condone-to pardon; to forgive; to overlook.

You're welcome MIDWESTDIVA!! To answer your question....I try not to 'condone' any sin, even my own!! You should see the fights I have with my self!! I think the issue that you see is that very few people will say things like murder are o.k. As a result, you don't see these major debates about is it o.k. to murder someone in certain situations. I also believe, to be honest with you, that some people don't talk about those 'little' (totally sarcastic!) sins like lying, gossiping, etc. because they know they are guilty of them too!!

Why did you say Bible Study was o.k?!?!?......you done done it now!!

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by Ania:
I don't mean to start an uproar but there is a saying, "Do not pass judgement on.....".
Another thing, the word, "abortion" is not mentioned or given reference to in the bible. It's your choice to take it out of text.

Since MIDWESTDIVA gave me her blessings for a Bible study I did a little bit of research on the topic. AlwaysDivine was right when she said that people have various faiths and philosophies, but those of us who profess Christianity must search the sriptures to see what they say, and then do our best to follow them. I found a wonderful essay on the topic of abortion from a biblical standpoint so I will post it below. The only other thing that I ahve to say about the topic is that each person must search their hearts about this and any other topic. The Holy Spirit will do the convicting, not me!!


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The fact that the word "abortion" does not appear in the Bible does not mean God is silent on the subject. Rather, one must probe
the scripture in deeper and broader context to discern His will regarding this matter. One doesn't find "heroin" mentioned either,
but it is not difficult for Christians to decide that its use is wrong. The basic question which must be answered is whether God deems the unborn to be a person. If the answer is "no", then perhaps we have the right to dispose of a fetus as an unwanted
appendix or tumor. If the answer is "yes," then we must treat the unborn with all the love and concern due another person that
God requires of us as Christians.

God knew David as a person before he was born, as related in Psalm 139:13-15 "You did form my inward parts, you knit
me together in my mother's womb.. you knew me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being
make in secret..." Human life begins at conception for the Psalmist David uses the personal pronoun "me" in the above.

More directly, God speaks to Jeremiah showing the child in the womb is a person. Jeremiah 1:4,5 "now the word of the Lord
came to me saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you."

The entity in the womb is a baby. Luke 1:41-44 "And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her
womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, 'Blessed are you among
women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.' And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come
to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy.' " The
Greek word for babe (BREPHOS) as used in the Greek scriptures also denoted a baby in Luke 2:12,16; an infant in Luke
18:15; and a child in II Timothy 3:15. In those passages, we see that no distinction was made between born and unborn
children.

The following concerns John the Baptist in Luke 1:15 "He will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even before his birth."

God knows the personalities of the unborn as in Genesis 25:23 "two nations are in thy womb" (Jacob and Esau) "and two
manner of people."

And Paul writes in Galatians 1:15 "But when He who had set me apart before I was born... and had called me through
his grace."

In these passages God is dealing with the unborn. One he consecrates, another he sets apart for service, a third he fills with the
Holy Spirit. Clearly, in these instances the unborn is a person. Lest there be any reservation that these may be special cases,
consider the most unique person of all, our Savior Jesus Christ. Unique as He is, the scriptures tell us that in His human nature He
was to be like us in every was. Hebrews 2:17 "Therefore, he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that
he might become a merciful and faithful high priest."
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Thank you to all who made me search the scripture to determine why I believe what I believe. You are making me stronger!!

Have a great weekend everyone!
Eclipse

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by MIDWESTDIVA:


Do you think this is what RU486 is really about? Couldn't the same things also be said about Norplant, Depo Provera or birth control pills? Do you think that this pill will increase the number of abortions African American and Latino women undergo?

Well... Are Afrikans in amerikkklan suppose to be using "contra-de-ceptives"? Especially with all the drug side affects that occur using those drugs?

What are these alleged abortion numbers of Afrikans in amerikkklan and out Latino-native american population?

When do we shunning are girl children: when they decide to abort or when they carry the baby to term and become a teenage mother that depletes our social-economic resources? Which is the lesser of 2 evils?

Spiritually speaking and come to find out scientifically speaking, a little pre-evolutionary decisions out to be made before one lies down and creates and perpetuates a new life---'Cuz the last immaculate conception I ever heard of came from Auset and Mary... By pre-evolution, I in no way trying to implement Darwin's thing except for one idea and that is personally, I will select my mate, naturally...

Then what is the idea of conception on a spiritually and scientifically? Once an egg become fertilized, are we proving biological fact?

[AlwaysDivine]

I have a question which somewhat relates to this subject even though it doesn't deal with taking a life. For those who believe that God allows things to happen for a reason - is it wrong to have surgery to remove a tumor (that God allowed to develop) or to take chemotherapy for the cancer (that God allowed to ravage your body)? It seems extreme, but, I DO know many religious people who do not get medical attention because of their faith. NOW, I DON"T AGREE WITH THIS - as everyone has seen, I think abortion is justified. But, how do those of you who think abortion is so wrong feel about human intervention in their own death... i.e. stopping diseases and conditions that GOD ALLOWED TO HAPPEN?

I am very curious

[SlvrnGold]

I think one of the main disagreements about abortion is whether or not the child is "alive" or actually a person in the womb. Some people think that it isn't yet a baby...it's just tissue, a fetus. Others think that it is actually a baby at the moment of conception. To answer your question: if you remove a tumor from your body, who are you hurting?? If you take chemotherapy, whom are you harming? If you abort a child, in essence, you are killing a life that has already been predestined by God. I don't think that the argument is in whether or not sustaining our health is against God's will. For that matter, we could not eat, and depend on God to nourish us supernaturally. I know the next question will be, what if the woman's life is in danger if she has the child. Well, in that case you are taking it into your own hands of whose life is worth more. You or your child. And, frankly, that's not a decision for you to make (at least in my opinion). I would love to hear what Ms. Diva has to say as well.

[MIDWESTDIVA]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diva_56:

Indeed children are not a right, they are a privilage. But in the same token children are not just property that when you are unable to (or simply don't want to) take care of them that you just throw them away (or in this case kill them... That is indeed UNREALISTIC.
If the married couple couldn't afford another child, DONT HAVE SEX until you are ready to assume responsibility for this child.

Are you serious? You really think that a married couple should not have sex unless they are ready for parenthood? Do you believe that sex is for purposes of procreation only? Also, I'm not sure where you're coming from with "Christians simply cannot condone the sin of abortion..." The New Testament speaks endlessly of forgiveness, which is the same thing as condoning sin according to Webster's dictionary.

Also, does anyone really think that it is God's divine plan to have all of the young African American and Latino girls walking around pushing strollers at the age of 13, 14, 15, 16, 17? Especially while our young Black men seem to be content to make babies and then move on to the next available coochie? All men aren't like DoggyStyle82. I would have quoted him but his post has mysteriously disappeared.

Also, I get the impression from some of the posts that I've read that if a woman gets pregnant, then she has been punished for commiting the sin of adultery and that she should accept her punishment by having her child. Should children be seen as a punishment? I think they should be seen as a blessing. But maybe a child is seen as more of a blessing to an adult married woman than to a young, single girl, who hasn't even finished high school yet. What about the young single mothers out there who end up becoming grandmothers at age 30, because the pattern of early parenthood has repeated itself. This happens all too often. These women haven't finished raising their own children yet, but now end up raising grandchildren as well. Again, I'm not saying abortion is right, I'm just saying that these are some situations where I would just have to fall short.


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We often give our enemies the means for our own destruction.

Aesop c550 BC

[This message has been edited by MIDWESTDIVA (edited October 06, 2000).]