Do you....

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by AXWhoah
A girl should always be able to feel her most comfortable around her sisters. And I think that even though a lesbian sorority member may not be attracted to her sisters there is always that potential there. I mean put me in a group with 150 men I am bound to find one of them attractive. Knowing that that potential is there is what makes some of us feel uncomfortable. So I am not closed minded, thank you.

I know that personally, I am just as comfortable around my male friends as around my female friends -- in some cases more so. I'm sure I'm not the only one. The possibility that they might be attracted to me doesn't affect my comfort level at all. In fact, I know that some of them are attracted to me, but that doesn't bother me because they know better than to think something will happen. And that would be the same with any lesbian who might happen to pledge a sorority -- she knows better than to hit on women she has no chance with, i.e. straight women.

Out of curiosity, does your viewpoint mean that if one of your sisters came out to you, you would advocate kicking her out of the sorority because you wouldn't feel comfortable with her anymore?



That said, I have to admit that I would be conflicted if a lesbian PNM wanted to pledge Tri Delta. While it wouldn't be as bad as it might be at some campuses, it would definitely raise some eyebrows and lower some numbers here. There is the possibility that it could be the "kiss of death" for any sorority that takes her. And I'm not sure that I would be willing to actively lead to the death of my sorority like that . . .

But because of the way Greek life is seen around here, and the Greek/independent split, it's very unlikely that an "out" lesbian PNM would come through rush.

[DZHBrown]

but I feel that if you look at someone differently because of who they sleep with, thats ridiculous

If a sister sleeps with 15 men in a week, I'm going to look at her differently. And it's going to be more negative than the sister who is a lesbian. Being uncomfortable and looking down upon someone can be two different things.

You also have to understand that some people really haven't known any gay/bi people in their life, so it's not something they feel all that comfortable with. I know that sounds weird to a lot of people, but I've only know one openly gay person so far in my life. I'm sure I've met or known many more that were, but that was the only one I knew about.

Like someone else said, the chapter should feel their most comfortable with each other. If there are a handful of people who feel uncomfortable, that makes for tense chapter relations.

but that is discrimination.....

It's also discrimination to cut women are not as pretty, have acne, are overweight, etc. Those aren't diseases and we certainly can't catch them, but sororities do it every day. (No, that doesn't make it right and I don't agree with it)

[Nhfulmer]

This thread keeps talking about "not discriminating". Everytime a chapter decides to "cut" a PNM, they are discriminating. We choose our members based on the fact that they will fit in with the chapter. If the required number of sisters or brothers (varies from group to group) votes to cut a PNM, that is it!!! It was based on some type of discrimination and is the right of each chapter. If you have a brother or sister who comes out after he/she is already initiated, then my feeling is that the chapter stands by him/her BUT when it is a PNM, it is different. At that point, the chapter has the right to choose and let's face it -- it is always based on discrimination of some kind. If a PNM is cut, it is because the chapter doesn't like something about the person and if it should happen to be his sexual orientation, so be it! You are forgetting our right to choice of members!! Not one single person is guaranteed the right to membership. When our bylaws forbid discrimination based on race, religion, etc., that is across the board; however, we can discriminate based on the individual. Right or wrong -- that's a fact!

[sugar and spice]

We do have the right to choose our own members, but most of our bylaws insist that we cannot choose our own members based on such arbitrary characteristics like race, physical appearance, religion, etc.

Unfortunately, Tri Delta is one of the few NPC sororities (I think there are only two or three) that forbid discrimination based on sexual preference. I think this will change quite a bit in the next ten or so years. If the only reason we were to deny membership to a lesbian was because she was a lesbian, we'd be violating our bylaws.

Why is it different for a lesbian PNM versus a sister who later comes out to you?

[astroAPhi]

Originally posted by pinkyphimu
but that is discrimination.....

Discomfort with someone else /= discrimination.

Actively excluding someone is.

[WhirlwindTNX]

I am damn proud to say that in Theta Nu Xi's mission statement it says "To promote leardership, multiculturalism, and self-improvement through academic excellence, involvement in and service to the campus and community, as well as being living examples of sisterhood across different races, cultures, religions, backgrounds and lifestyles". . . I am also proud to say that I have one bi-sexual sister out there and I can't wait to meet her one day!!!


THETA NU!!!!!

[Nhfulmer]

All of this is idealistic. When voting on new members, each chapter has to be careful not to admit anyone who can harm the chapter. If the members feel that a PNM would harm the chapter's reputation, they have an obligation to their chapter not to offer a bid. I have no problem with an individual's sexual orientation but I DO have a problem with not considering what is best for the entire group. Remember - there is a vote and, as I said before, no one person is guaranteed a right to membership. Our entire premise is based on our right to choose our members.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by Nhfulmer
All of this is idealistic. When voting on new members, each chapter has to be careful not to admit anyone who can harm the chapter. If the members feel that a PNM would harm the chapter's reputation, they have an obligation to their chapter not to offer a bid. I have no problem with an individual's sexual orientation but I DO have a problem with not considering what is best for the entire group. Remember - there is a vote and, as I said before, no one person is guaranteed a right to membership. Our entire premise is based on our right to choose our members.

. . . . within reason. And in many groups, sexual orientation is not a valid reason to deny membership.

There is a difference in "harming the chapter" and "harming the chapter's reputation." A lesbian member might harm the reputation, but chances are that she's not going to harm the chapter itself.

Now to an extent I agree with you. On some campuses a lesbian pledge could hurt numbers to the point where it could cause your chapter to close, and in that case you have to weigh which is more worth it: your principles or your sorority. On other campuses it would not be such a big deal, and that's great.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure this is something that will ever change. I mean, take the race issue. Fifty years after the first non-white women was initiated into an NPC sorority, at many schools the NPC sororities are still very, very white. Many people of color don't rush because they think they won't feel comfortable, because they've heard stories like those we just discussed at UGA or Bama. And so because some PNMs of color aren't welcomed or made to feel comfortable, many more don't bother rushing at all. I think sexual orientation will be the same issue for many, many years to come.

[kappaloo]

My goodness... things do change when you cross the border.

I can say with confidence that cutting a sister based on sexuality alone would NOT be acceptable in my chapter, in my university. If it ever happened we would be banned from campus faster than you can say "discrimination". I doubt the issue would come up here at all. But that's my campus. Waterloo is extremely gay-friendly (I even have a button saying so that I wear during orientation week to let students know it's ok to be open about their sexuality with me if they want).

Yes, we have mutual selection, but saying that's it okay to cut because someone's sexuality would make the chapter uncomfortable is like saying it's okay to cut because someone's race/religon would make the chapter uncomfortable. And I think we all agree that cuting based on race/religion is unacceptable - so why is sexuality?

[Nhfulmer]

Again, it all boils down to "right to choose members" - whether some think it is OK or not.

Since you mentioned Bama, I will pass on what my husband learned from the member of the administration in charge of Greek affairs there. One of the main reasons that most of the groups there do not have black members is because of the pressure put on black PNM's by the predominantly black GLO's. He said that there is even a name for it - "crabbing". He said that if you have ever seen a bucket of live crabs, the majority of them will try to pull one who attempts to escape back into the mass. The predominantly black groups make it clear that if a girl/guy attempts to rush a predominantly white group and doesn't get a bid, he/she will NEVER get a bid to a predominantly black group. Quite a bit of pressure for an 18 year old, wouldn't you say? I don't know about the fraternities but a very, very few black girls have pledged NPC groups there but haven't lasted. Believe me, it isn't all the fault of the NPC groups -- the NPHC groups contribute to the situation. How many white girls belong to NPHC groups.

[aopinthesky]

>>>>I can say with confidence that cutting a sister based on sexuality alone would NOT be acceptable in my chapter, in my university.<<<<

Before you get all "holier than thou" about the reaction of brothers and sisters in US GLOs to gay PNMs, let me tell you that, if someone was cut based on their sexual orientation and that was stated out loud, it wouldn't be acceptable here either. You have to prove it. PNMs get cut all the time for reasons that wouldn't be socially acceptable as well as for reasons that might not be legal. I bet this happens even in Canada. It happens any time you have a deliberative process for admission to your group.

[Nhfulmer]

Originally posted by aopinthesky
>>>>I can say with confidence that cutting a sister based on sexuality alone would NOT be acceptable in my chapter, in my university.<<<<

Before you get all "holier than thou" about the reaction of brothers and sisters in US GLOs to gay PNMs, let me tell you that, if someone was cut based on their sexual orientation and that was stated out loud, it wouldn't be acceptable here either. You have to prove it. PNMs get cut all the time for reasons that wouldn't be socially acceptable as well as for reasons that might not be legal. I bet this happens even in Canada. It happens any time you have a deliberative process for admission to your group.

Thank you - that is what I have been trying to say !

[kappaloo]

Originally posted by aopinthesky
>>>>I can say with confidence that cutting a sister based on sexuality alone would NOT be acceptable in my chapter, in my university.<<<<

Before you get all "holier than thou" about the reaction of brothers and sisters in US GLOs to gay PNMs, let me tell you that, if someone was cut based on their sexual orientation and that was stated out loud,

I wasn't getting "holier than thou".... I'm just openly surprised at this whole conversation - call it niavity - it's just never something that I thought of being an issue.

[AZpinkkittie]

First of all, I completely understand the views that "mutual selection" allows the GLO to cut who they want without really explaining why. That is their right. I am also extremely supportive of gay rights, and the desire that ALL people have to feel accepted and loved (which is why they would want to join a GLO in the first place). With that said, I think it's funny that this issue would come up during rush. I don't think you should hide who you are from people you care about. By all means, hold a forum to tell your sisters you're a lesbian, but I don't think it's something that should follow your name in an introduction at a rush party ("Hi, I'm Jane and I'm gay.") I've read that you all have rules about what you don't talk about during rush (religion, drinking, boys, etc) so why would bringing up your orientatin be acceptable. Yes, it's who you are, but so is your faith. I think the gay people that are going to rush any GLO will probably be the type that don't feel the need to preface everything they do with the announcement that they are gay. I don't introduce myself as straight. Sure, I figure that it's something people assume, but really it's because it shouldn't matter to someone who doesn't even know my last name, and is just trying to get to know me as a person. If that relationship becomes more involved (like the 3rd or 4th party when you're really cutting down who you are interested in) then the issue of sexuality might come up. Although if someone asks you if you have a girlfriend/boyfriend, don't lie, that's just dumb.

As far as ruining your rep, this is probably more of an issue at schools that are already a little wary of homosexuals. A school that makes their gay students feel welcome might have a greek system that feels the same way. And who knows, maybe having gay members could improve your rep with other under-represented groups ("Well, that group is cool with their gay sis/bro, they must be open-minded people. That's not what I thought of greek life before. Maybe I'll rush next year.") You never know, it could happen. I'm sure the first black person to get into a predominantly white GLO changed the minds of more than few GDI's.

[AXOKatie]

<< And who knows, maybe having gay members could improve your rep with other under-represented groups ("Well, that group is cool with their gay sis/bro, they must be open-minded people. That's not what I thought of greek life before. Maybe I'll rush next year.") You never know, it could happen. I'm sure the first black person to get into a predominantly white GLO changed the minds of more than few GDI's.>>

i totally agree with AZpinkkittie on this one...why would you want to have a bunch of sorority sisters that look/talk/act exactly like you? i think that having gay or bisexual sisters would add to the bonds of sisterhood just like having sisters of different races, faiths and economic backgrounds because you have something to SAY to each other...i would think that conflict would only come up if sisters stopped listening and respecting each other...and it seems like the only things that people are afraid of are A) their campus reputation and B) sisters hitting on them, two issues that i think can be worked out if their sisterhood is truly strong...every organization has to deal with rumors and stereotypes, half of the time it's not even true...and i think that sisters can and should respect each other's sexuality just as they would their heritage, hearts and minds, meaning that the chances of a sister hitting on you or sexually harassing are less than people think...this discussion has made me thankful that my campus is liberal and we never discuss gay or bi lifestyles during rush as if it were the only thing a girl had to offer, as if she wasn't a good student, athlete, dancer, friend or potential sister