Botched Transplant

[Optimist Prime]

I think health care for everyone should be provided by the gov't. I also think we should annex the remaing parts of the United States of Mexico.

[adduncan]

Originally posted by Optimist Prime
I think health care for everyone should be provided by the gov't. I also think we should annex the remaing parts of the United States of Mexico.

Sounds great.

How much of YOUR paycheck should we garnish to help pay for it?



Adrienne (PNAM-2003)

[damasa]

Originally posted by adduncan
Sounds great.

How much of YOUR paycheck should we garnish to help pay for it?



Adrienne (PNAM-2003)

Shit, if our gov't paid for health expenses, i'd give whatever was needed from my paycheck. (Also think that with the gov't paying for healthcare expenses/insurance it would most likely be very heavily regulated and with that much government involvement costs would probably go down, greatly). So yea, I'd be all about that system, so what if our taxes are a little higher? Other countries do it and it has been working thus far.

[adduncan]

Originally posted by damasa
So yea, I'd be all about that system, so what if our taxes are a little higher? Other countries do it and it has been working thus far.

I could wait for someone from Canada or another country that "does it" to chime in here but it might take a little while.

What are you willing to pay for? Keeping a patient alive against all odds? Are you willing to set limits on who can receive what care? How about clinical trials or anything not proven to be beneficial for a disease? Would you pay for an organ transplant? Bone marrow? Chemotherapy and advanced diagnostic techniques like PET? What if someone's religious beliefs dictate that they can never ever ever shut off life support? Will you pay for the consequences of their beliefs?

Still in favor of those tax hikes?

These are not small questions. "Yeah, sure, I'm all for it!" sounds great on a chat board or in college, but IRL it's a lot more complicated than that, and the enthusiasm fades exponentially.

The reason I mentioned Canada is because of their subsidised health care. All too often we see wealthy patients from that country come to our center because even though they have the money to pay for what they need, they still can not get in to a facility to be cared for!!! Having the government pay for everything comes with a much higher price tag than you think. The experiment has cost lives in Canada and other countries--it has failed. God willing, you won't have to find that out for yourself in your own life.

Is it still a good idea to let the government "pay for it all" with tax money, and dictate to you what care you can and can not have?

Some pretty serious food for thought. Try working in this field for a while..........

Adrienne (PNAM-2003)

[cherub]

I'm Canadian and read this post with great interest. I'm not about to enter into a heated debate over the differences in our health care system and which is better, so you can stop reading if that's what you're hoping for

Background info on Canadian health care:
health care is handled on a provincial level, with funding from the federal government. I have an OHIP card, essentiall like my drivers licence, but green. With this card, I'm entitled to health care within Ontario and the rest of Canada.

That's my opening statement. If you guys want to ask me questions, I'll reply as best I can from the "Canadian" perspective.

MY MAIN POINT - PLEASE DISCUSS ORGAN DONATION WITH YOUR FAMILIES!!! I know here, even though I have signed my donor card and am above the age of majority, next of kin have absolute right of refusal to donate my organs should I die. I've spoken to my parents about this on numerous occasions and stressed that I want my wishes followed.

[damasa]

Originally posted by adduncan
I could wait for someone from Canada or another country that "does it" to chime in here but it might take a little while.

What are you willing to pay for? Keeping a patient alive against all odds? Are you willing to set limits on who can receive what care? How about clinical trials or anything not proven to be beneficial for a disease? Would you pay for an organ transplant? Bone marrow? Chemotherapy and advanced diagnostic techniques like PET? What if someone's religious beliefs dictate that they can never ever ever shut off life support? Will you pay for the consequences of their beliefs?

Still in favor of those tax hikes?

Who is granted the power to make such decisions? If I'm not, does that mean you are? There are bigger ethical issue here. Will I pay for the consequences of their beliefs? Or would I rather not allow my fellow country men/women to at least HAVE a chance at life? (If they can't afford care at all.) No matter what their religious beliefs or medical situations might be. What if they couldn't pay for Chemo on their own or an organ transplant? What, sorry but there's nothing we can do for you? Bull....

Like I said before, I will be in favor of a tax hike if necessary. Sorry for my bleeding heart but I happen to actually care a great deal for the people of my country, not just about myself or the money that is or isn't going to be in my pocket.

Originally posted by adduncan
I
These are not small questions. "Yeah, sure, I'm all for it!" sounds great on a chat board or in college, but IRL it's a lot more complicated than that, and the enthusiasm fades exponentially.

I never once stated anything about these being small questions/situations/considerations. You can never dictate what is going to happen in real life, yes real life is complicated, but what statisics have you shown me about the basis of enthusiasm on such a subject, I'm sorry but none. In the same sense that I don't have proof that everyone will be up in arms about a proposal like this. I don't talk from my rear, and I feel like you don't respect my integrity about this situation. I'm sorry but this isn't your "what kate spade should I get thread." My opinions yes, but true to them I hold.

Originally posted by adduncan

The reason I mentioned Canada is because of their subsidised health care. All too often we see wealthy patients from that country come to our center because even though they have the money to pay for what they need, they still can not get in to a facility to be cared for!!! Having the government pay for everything comes with a much higher price tag than you think. The experiment has cost lives in Canada and other countries--it has failed. God willing, you won't have to find that out for yourself in your own life.

Is it still a good idea to let the government "pay for it all" with tax money, and dictate to you what care you can and can not have?

Some pretty serious food for thought. Try working in this field for a while..........

Adrienne (PNAM-2003)

Ok, so you see wealthy patients from canda come to your center because they can't get treatment in Canada? I can go with that, but aren't you in TEXAS? Why would they go so far as to go to Texas when they could go somewhere closer to the Canadian/U.S. border? Wait, isn't it some sort of special treatment facility, cancer? I just don't understand that....maybe it is because they can't get treatment in Canada due to overcrowded facilities or maybe they feel they could get better treatment in the U.S. - a realistic possibility?!

I never said anything like this would be cheap.....nor did I say that it would be a sure life saver. But what's to say that it wouldn't be better than our system now? Lives are LOST everyday because people can't afford to get the treatment that they need. But is that a better way for these people to die as opposed to "experimenting?" *For those moral individuals*


In my opinion, yes I still feel that the government should pay for it all.

[Munchkin03]

Sure, universalized health care may not be perfect. But, the United States, one of the world's wealthiest nations, has a correlation between wealth and the availability of healthcare that is embarassing for an industrialized Western nation. I'm not asking for Mayo-clinic quality checkups for everyone--just the ability to be able to go to the doctor when you're sick! Doesn't everyone have that right? Universalized health care--even if it was just limited to basic health and preventive care (ie, annual exams)--would be a great thing for all Americans. The government overspends on so much stuff--I'd much rather see my tax money go to health care than lining some idiot politician's pockets.

[aggieAXO]

My understanding about our health care system is if you go to a government subsidized ER then they have to treat you no questions asked (though this probably does not include chemotherapy, radiation therapy and I am sure there is a great deal of other exclusions).

I saw a news story (I think it was NBC nightly news) a couple of weeks ago about the canadian health care program. Some of the problems are the time people have to wait to see a Dr.-usually takes months and the level of healthcare-not top quality. If chemo is needed people wait weeks to get started.

If the U.S. started to have universilized health care I would bet our advances in medicine would suffer. People come to the U.S. b/c we are the best and most progressive when it comes to medical techniques.

[adduncan]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by damasa
Who is granted the power to make such decisions? If I'm not, does that mean you are?

If it's the government, then anyone who has the right to vote will have the power.

I never once stated anything about these being small questions/situations/considerations. You can never dictate what is going to happen in real life, yes real life is complicated, but what statisics have you shown me about the basis of enthusiasm on such a subject, I'm sorry but none.

All you had to do was ask, if you wanted statistics. We started off with personal experience and opinions, that's where we went.

In the same sense that I don't have proof that everyone will be up in arms about a proposal like this. I don't talk from my rear, and I feel like you don't respect my integrity about this situation. I'm sorry but this isn't your "what kate spade should I get thread." My opinions yes, but true to them I hold.

Challenging an opinion with one of my own based on a different experience is NOT not "respecting your integrity". It was never stated nor implied that I had anything BUT respect for you or anything about you.

I am out of this thread. The minute anyone diverts a conversation from the topic to "you're not respecting me" is the beginning of the end. I'll be glad to carry on a conversation in private before the thread gets hijacked any further. Civil inquiries will receive civil responses.

Adrienne (PNAM-2003)

[damasa]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by adduncan

Originally posted by damasa
Who is granted the power to make such decisions? If I'm not, does that mean you are?

If it's the government, then anyone who has the right to vote will have the power.

I never once stated anything about these being small questions/situations/considerations. You can never dictate what is going to happen in real life, yes real life is complicated, but what statisics have you shown me about the basis of enthusiasm on such a subject, I'm sorry but none.

All you had to do was ask, if you wanted statistics. We started off with personal experience and opinions, that's where we went.

In the same sense that I don't have proof that everyone will be up in arms about a proposal like this. I don't talk from my rear, and I feel like you don't respect my integrity about this situation. I'm sorry but this isn't your "what kate spade should I get thread." My opinions yes, but true to them I hold.

Challenging an opinion with one of my own based on a different experience is NOT not "respecting your integrity". It was never stated nor implied that I had anything BUT respect for you or anything about you.

I am out of this thread. The minute anyone diverts a conversation from the topic to "you're not respecting me" is the beginning of the end. I'll be glad to carry on a conversation in private before the thread gets hijacked any further. Civil inquiries will receive civil responses.

Adrienne (PNAM-2003)

LOL omg, I was very civil. To be honest, I could care less if you respect me or not...

I was simply stating that I am more than "simply posting because it sounds cool on a college message board." By your comments it seemed as if you didn't respect the integrity of my argument, like I'm just posting to be cool or something...lol


I would like some of these statistics you speak of though....

And I would like to know why people from canada go to a treatment center in Texas if they can't get treatment in Canada?

[CanadianTeke]

So yeah i'm a Canuck, I have OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Program), i pay an assload of money out of my pocket everyday for this luxury, but i wouldn't give it up.

For major procedures there is often a very lengthly waiting list, if you have the money you can bypass this waiting list by flying down to the states, or elsewhere around the world. If you don't have the money you can wait and have the gov't pay for it. There are long lines in emergency, and sometimes in Toronto ER's go on code red which basically means they cannot accept anymore patients.

Now here is some background on why it is this way (coming from a person who votes New Democratic Party (the socialists) ) In Ontario in 1993 the Pogressive Conservative party was elected as the ruling party, under the platform of Tax Cuts. Like i said earlier i pay assloads of money in taxes for heathcare (15% on every purchase plus income tax). So when you cut taxes one of the things that gets cut is Heath, to the tune of a few billion $. This is gonna cause alot of strain on the system. Hospitals were closed and amagamated, homecare was cut, elective surgurys were restricted, nurses and doctors were laid off, etc etc. Once again this causes a HUGE strain on the system. So the wealthy among others utilized the pay-as-you-go system that you guys have in order to not have to wait.

I will also offer my services if anybody is still puzzeled by the univeralized healthcare system.

[damasa]

Originally posted by CanadianTeke
So yeah i'm a Canuck, I have OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Program), i pay an assload of money out of my pocket everyday for this luxury, but i wouldn't give it up.

For major procedures there is often a very lengthly waiting list, if you have the money you can bypass this waiting list by flying down to the states, or elsewhere around the world. If you don't have the money you can wait and have the gov't pay for it. There are long lines in emergency, and sometimes in Toronto ER's go on code red which basically means they cannot accept anymore patients.

Now here is some background on why it is this way (coming from a person who votes New Democratic Party (the socialists) ) In Ontario in 1993 the Pogressive Conservative party was elected as the ruling party, under the platform of Tax Cuts. Like i said earlier i pay assloads of money in taxes for heathcare (15% on every purchase plus income tax). So when you cut taxes one of the things that gets cut is Heath, to the tune of a few billion $. This is gonna cause alot of strain on the system. Hospitals were closed and amagamated, homecare was cut, elective surgurys were restricted, nurses and doctors were laid off, etc etc. Once again this causes a HUGE strain on the system. So the wealthy among others utilized the pay-as-you-go system that you guys have in order to not have to wait.

I will also offer my services if anybody is still puzzeled by the univeralized healthcare system.

Was the healthcare system in Canada universalized in 93?

How do the people that you know feel about the system the way it is?

[CanadianTeke]

The Health Care system began Universalizing in 1947 in Saskatchewan and by 1961 all provinces were universilized. So we have had health care for over 40 years now.

It needs fixing, it has been falling apart, it needs an overhaul, but it needs to retain the same ideals.

[damasa]

Originally posted by CanadianTeke
The Health Care system began Universalizing in 1947 in Saskatchewan and by 1961 all provinces were universilized. So we have had health care for over 40 years now.

It needs fixing, it has been falling apart, it needs an overhaul, but it needs to retain the same ideals.

Alright man, thanks for the background info. I'll probably have more questions and whatnot, but I'm damn tired right now.....

[adduncan]

Originally posted by damasa
And I would like to know why people from canada go to a treatment center in Texas if they can't get treatment in Canada?

They come all the way down here (in addition to Sloan-Kettering, etc) because our center is ranked the #1 cancer facility in the USA. Plus, it is part of a very large medical complex that covers the best in practically every medical discipline.

As for the stats--they are in my boss' desk. Who, incidentally, was born and raised in Ontario (went to medical school there) and came to the USA to practice medicine (along w/ his wife and brother, who are also MDACC physicians). The first negative stories I heard about gov't-controlled medicine came from him--first hand, from a couple of different perspectives. I'll post them as soon as I can dig them out from his paper-pile.

Adrienne (PNAM-2003)