STOP BEING SO STUPID!

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Kappa Alpha Order did (maybe still does) the Old South formals where folks dress in antebellum garb. They flew (and maybe still fly) the Confederate flag, etc.

I don't know the status of Old South, but I'm pretty sure KA has forbidden use of the Confederate flag.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

You are leaping.

In that case, schools and GLOs need to revise quite a few of their policies and procedures. They violate our Riiiiiiiiiiiiights.

Not really, if I understand what he's saying, given his comment upthread about this action possibly being okay if the school were private and the prison reference for Westboro Baptist.

I think he's saying in America, you aren't entitled to see the government punish someone because you or others find their speech offensive. And that's true. And the government includes public universities. (Free speech rights may not be quite as absolute in primary and secondary schools because of the nature of those schools.)

Of course, that doesn't mean people or groups are immune from the non-governmental consequences (from fellow students, from GLO HQs, etc.) of their speech. And there could be "hostile environment" considerations beyond speech itself.

And I think there is a legitimate question raised: Is dressing up in sombreros and serapes for "Taco Tuesday" "speech" in the constitutional sense?

[DrPhil]

I didn't notice this was about government punishment. How did this discussion become about government punishment? Even when talking about public vs private institutions and organizations, schools and GLOs always maintain the ability to impose sanctions. They don't have to use government hate crime legislation to do so.

I'm talking about schools and GLOs choosing to do something beyond a cliche' racial sensitivity training.

There's nothing wrong with Taco Tuesday as long as attendees don't show up imitating and mocking "Mexicans" (or looking and acting like Speedy Gonzalez, gang members, etc). The proposed subjectivity is why it is up to the school and GLO to figure out wether there will be a sanction and what will be the sanction. This is no different than the costume parties GCers rant about annually.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I don't remember parties like this in the 80s.* Not saying they didn't happen, and maybe it was lack of social media where every little aspect of life is publicized around the globe, but in my experience at least these types of parties weren't really that common back then. We were too busy having toga parties and the like.


* Not including "life on the plantation" parties. Those I definitely remember.

Our theme parties in the mid-80s were: Toga Party, 50s party, Roaring 20s, Beach Party, Halloween party, Hawaiian party... that's about it from what I can remember. We recycled those themes over and over.

[Low D Flat]

I don't remember parties like this in the 80s.

I don't know whether to say that my community was more worldly or less? I attended Luau and Fiesta parties into the 90s. These sometimes included costumes like grass skirts/leis or sombreros and Mexican embroidered blouses. (Definitely not fake mustaches or "gang" attire.) Earlier, in my '70s childhood, some moms like mine threw themed birthday parties that might be "Oriental," complete with parasols for the kids, egg rolls, yada yada. I dressed in various ethnic garb on different Halloweens; my parents were well traveled and proud to dress us up in a real Indian sari (plus hairdo and red dot), a real Japanese kimono, whatever. I had some kind of robe with jingling coins on it that they got in Egypt. We thought we were far more cosmopolitan than the kids dressed up as witches and superheroes. We would never do any of that nowadays.

In the Southern Belle Primer, when they're talking about rush parties, it's mentioned in passing that one party is Japanese themed and everyone takes their shoes off at the door. I don't know if that was just a one-time deal.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Our theme parties in the mid-80s were: Toga Party, 50s party, Roaring 20s, Beach Party, Halloween party, Hawaiian party... that's about it from what I can remember. We recycled those themes over and over.

Hawaiian Party? Toga Party? That's cultural appropriation! Your group should have been placed on double secret probation.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Nobody is punishing individual members; they are punishing the group.

Corporations are people, my friend.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I didn't notice this was about government punishment. How did this discussion become about government punishment?

RTA. This is about the University of California Fullerton imposing sanctions on a sorority because they offended some way-too-sensitive people.

Even when talking about public vs private institutions and organizations, schools and GLOs always maintain the ability to impose sanctions. They don't have to use government hate crime legislation to do so.

Punishing students for off-campus conduct (which is probably speech in this case) at a social event unrelated to any university programming... let's just say if someone brought me this case I'd happily be off to federal court with this thing. Might even get a grant or some help from the ACLU.

If ADPi was sanctioning their own chapter, fine, that's their private business. If a private school is sanctioning the conduct of their students, they are free to do so. Government schools, however, have to respect your constitutional rights, one of which is being able to say just about any damn thing you want without penalty.

I'm talking about schools and GLOs choosing to do something beyond a cliche' racial sensitivity training.

GLOs can do, schools? I mean.. maybe they could order sensitivity training.. that might fly, but even that, in my opinion is a stretch.

There's nothing wrong with Taco Tuesday as long as attendees don't show up imitating and mocking "Mexicans" (or looking and acting like Speedy Gonzalez, gang members, etc). The proposed subjectivity is why it is up to the school and GLO to figure out wether there will be a sanction and what will be the sanction. This is no different than the costume parties GCers rant about annually.

I'd argue that it's not up to the school. The GLO though? Heck yeah. Can the students protest? Sure. Name and shame? Ok. Picket the house during rush? You betcha. Get the Dean of Students to penalize the organization? I don't think so.

Schools need to know their limits. Years ago, I nearly had an issue with a Greek Life adviser with the group I advise. An angry lawyer letter was enough to put the kabosh on anything the school was thinking about doing.

This is an academic discussion of course, I'm guessing that this is going forward with the cooperation of the chapter's alumni/national office, etc.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Hawaiian Party? Toga Party? That's cultural appropriation! Your group should have been placed on double secret probation.

If they are mimicking demographics of people? I agree.

If they are acting like tourists in Hawaii and Ancient Rome? I disagree.

[AGDee]

We were mimicking Animal House with the toga parties so ...yeah. Hawaiian parties typically consisted of wearing Hawaiian shirts.

[IndianaSigKap]

Originally Posted by AGDee

We were mimicking Animal House with the toga parties so ...yeah. Hawaiian parties typically consisted of wearing Hawaiian shirts.

TO-GA TO-GA That was one of our recycled themes, too! We had 70s themes with lots of tie dye and a barn dance every fall with jeans, boots, flannels and bandannas.

[Sciencewoman]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Our theme parties in the mid-80s were: Toga Party, 50s party, Roaring 20s, Beach Party, Halloween party, Hawaiian party... that's about it from what I can remember. We recycled those themes over and over.

I do recall Pimp and Prostitute -- that was mainly an excuse to dress in revealing clothing around the fraternity men, and it was easy to find cheap, leftover 70s clothes at Goodwill.

I hate to say it, but the shoes we reserved for "slutty" costume attire were tamer than the platform stilettos I see college women frequently wearing today...along with the tight, tube skirts for clubbing.

[ASTalumna06]

This whole conversation reminded me of this...

What American-themed parties look like around the world:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/this-...world?s=mobile

Enjoy!

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Government schools, however, have to respect your constitutional rights, one of which is being able to say just about any damn thing you want without penalty.

There are no criminal penalties being applied. The sanctions are targeting an organization, not an individual. Courts have agreed many times that there are limits on free speech.

All of which is to say that this argument is so bad, I think you must be trolling.

[redryder27]

i'm sorry but i just have to put in my two cents. cal state fullerton is in anaheim/fullerton. most of the population in anaheim and fullerton is hispanic. i'm sorry but people are being way to sensitive about this ENTIRE THING!! since these are college aged women just playing around, i really don't think they were thinking about serious sanctions like this when they were dressing up, maybe like they did to high school.

and also cal state fullerton is part of the california state university system which is public. cal state fullerton is not part of the UC system.

[DrPhil]

Contrary to misconceptions race and ethnicity-based cluelessness and ignorance increase with racial and ethnic diversity.

This can happen for two reasons or a combination:
1. Presumed familiarity can breed "some of my best friends are _____" or "my friend is _____ and she doesn't mind that I use that word".

2. Diversity can breed a sense of threat that the powerful group is losing or lost dominance.

These women were probably #1.