Keeping College Students from Voting

[christiangirl]

Shocker.

[SWTXBelle]

I live in LBJ country - dead Texans have been voting for years.

While Mickey Mouse might seem to be a too obvious example, people successfully registering their pets to vote is another example. I would suggest that it may be that the tightening up needs to occur at the registration end of the voting spectrum. Currently in Texas you fill out the form and you are good. You are not required to send in any supporting documentation. Send it off and get your voter registration card back through the mail. Some states have same day registration - register and vote. Would those who oppose voter id oppose tighter registration requirements? It also occurs to me that the best analogy to requiring id for voting might be the requirements to buy firearms . The right to bear arms is a Constitutional right, but we have decided that it is not one without limitations.

[barbino]

I live in Chicago- we've been trying not to have dead Chicagoans vote for years.

Reading this thread has given me a huge headache. I have been one of the drivers for the "Republican bus" for several candidates in the past. If they are on your area list for a local election, you may call and give them a ride to the polls. However, there is no way to police how they vote! There are pollwatchers from both parties in every voting place to be sure of that.

Having been both an equipment manager and an election judge for the last several years, I want to say that Chicago really tries hard to be fair and run a strictly legitimate election process. There are a series of checks and balances in place. I myself have been sworn into the other party if there was a shortage/unbalance in the judges. You must represent the party that you are sworn into that particular election. If a person has voted within the last few elections, no ID check is neccessary in Chicago.

However, having photo ID's would be an excellent idea and head off many problems. Do I believe that college students should vote in their own areas? Definitely. Vote. College students should take their right to vote very seriously, as a very important part of their American citizenship.

The joke in Chicago, "Vote and vote often" is just a joke. Election days in Chicago have their own brand of insanity; but every attempt is made to ensure proper results.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by barbino

However, there is no way to police how they vote! There are pollwatchers from both parties in every voting place to be sure of that.

That is wonderful for the polling places in your area.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I live in LBJ country - dead Texans have been voting for years.

While Mickey Mouse might seem to be a too obvious example, people successfully registering their pets to vote is another example. I would suggest that it may be that the tightening up needs to occur at the registration end of the voting spectrum. Currently in Texas you fill out the form and you are good. You are not required to send in any supporting documentation. Send it off and get your voter registration card back through the mail. Some states have same day registration - register and vote. Would those who oppose voter id oppose tighter registration requirements? It also occurs to me that the best analogy to requiring id for voting might be the requirements to buy firearms . The right to bear arms is a Constitutional right, but we have decided that it is not one without limitations.

The issue of dead voters is not an issue of individuals coming in and voting for dead relatives. This old methods of bulk voting for known dead voters. Mandating IDs won't stop this type of election fraud.

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

The issue of dead voters is not an issue of individuals coming in and voting for dead relatives. This old methods of bulk voting for known dead voters. Mandating IDs won't stop this type of election fraud.

Maybe not where you are, but then again, you believe dead people voting only happens in three cities. I also don't understand "This old methods of bulk voting for known dead voters" - I assume you mean it is an old method of having dead voters vote in bulk, or are you referencing some additional methods, plural?

If you have to show an id in order to vote you will be unable to vote for people other than yourself, unless you have a fake id.

FWIW, I was an election judge for years in Hays County. MC, it was before the HAVA was passed in 2002, so I was unaware of the first-time voter id procedure.

Two thoughts:

1.) Fake ids - If identification is too easy to replicate then that needs to be addressed. In this day and age it should be easier than ever to make a difficult to reproduce form of identification (I know the new passports include technology making it far more difficult to make fake ones.)

2.) As an aside - I hate the current primary system and wish we could go to one nationwide primary on one day instead of this long, drawn out process which puts too much power in the hands of certain voters.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Maybe not where you are, but then again, you believe dead people voting only happens in three cities. I also don't understand "This old methods of bulk voting for known dead voters" - I assume you mean it is an old method of having dead voters vote in bulk, or are you referencing some additional methods, plural?

If you have to show an id in order to vote you will be unable to vote for people other than yourself, unless you have a fake id.

FWIW, I was an election judge for years in Hays County. MC, it was before the HAVA was passed in 2002, so I was unaware of the first-time voter id procedure.

Two thoughts:

1.) Fake ids - If identification is too easy to replicate then that needs to be addressed. In this day and age it should be easier than ever to make a difficult to reproduce form of identification (I know the new passports include technology making it far more difficult to make fake ones.)

2.) As an aside - I hate the current primary system and wish we could go to one nationwide primary on one day instead of this long, drawn out process which puts too much power in the hands of certain voters.

What I mean by bulk voting is...dead people voting is a systematic vote like stuffing the ballot box. It wasn't a problem because people knew their dead relatives were still on the voting rolls and impersonated them to vote twice. Dead voters were a problem in big cities where political machines would identify large blocks of dead voters still on the rolls and stuff the ballot boxes using their names. It's why they now purge voting rolls of dead constituents. A couple of people voting for their dead relatives would be a minuscule issue. The dead people voting issue was not about that and, as I said earlier, wouldn't be helped by having IDs.


ETA: for what it's worth, a passport is a federal ID that the vast majority of Americans do NOT have. Saying that state level IDs should rise to the level of a passport on the level of security is ridiculous. Don't you remember the mandate after 9/11 that all states upgrade the security of their IDs and several states flat out refused. I doubt they'll change their minds for this issue.

[SWTXBelle]

"Ridiculous"? Rather subjective adjective, not to mention begging the question. Difficult? Maybe. Unlikely? Maybe. It all depends on how serious states are about insuring that their identification cannot be replicated. If fake identification is the problem that some on this thread have indicated then the question is, how big of a problem? If it is minor, then yes, the cost/benefit ratio will be such that it won't be worth the expense. If it is indeed a major problem, then a look at the cost/benefits will show that it would be something to pursue. Just because some states chose not to implement controls on their identification doesn't mean the idea is without merit.

Please note that the issue was raised by those who believe voters should not be required to show id in order to vote. The claim is that ids can easily be forged and often are. If that is indeed the problem, it can be remedied.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Two thoughts:

1.) Fake ids - If identification is too easy to replicate then that needs to be addressed. In this day and age it should be easier than ever to make a difficult to reproduce form of identification (I know the new passports include technology making it far more difficult to make fake ones.)

... except the technology that makes the IDs more complex is really the same technology that allows people to make fraudulent IDs.

Also, dead people voting will happen via fake ID anyway ... that's straight-up a different issue than a de facto poll tax.

2.) As an aside - I hate the current primary system and wish we could go to one nationwide primary on one day instead of this long, drawn out process which puts too much power in the hands of certain voters.

Oh, like those oh-so-powerful Iowa voters, who have correctly predicted the president by the winner in their primaries two times in history? (New Hampshire has a similarly shitty record)

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Currently in Texas you fill out the form and you are good. You are not required to send in any supporting documentation. Send it off and get your voter registration card back through the mail. Some states have same day registration - register and vote. Would those who oppose voter id oppose tighter registration requirements?

I missed this earlier. Federal law (The Help America Vote Act) requires a voter who registered by mail and is voting for the first time to show either a photo ID, some other government-issued ID or something like a paycheck, bank statement or utility bill. Similar forms of identification have to shown when one registers in person.

[AGDee]

Michigan implemented the photo ID requirement just before the Obama election and it was controversial at the time. They do offer the option of signing an affidavit that you are who you say you are if you don't have a photo ID to get around the disenfranchisement argument. I find it kind of ironic to say "You have to have a photo ID but if you don't, then just sign this paper". If the purpose is to prevent fraud, then it fails because if you're committing voter fraud, then you're not going to think twice about signing the affidavit. So what's the purpose really? It feels like a measure to intimidate people... to make it just a little harder for them to vote.

As a college student, I voted absentee. It wasn't tough to do here. The most disconcerting thing was that during the 2000 Gore/Bush debacle, some precincts openly admitted that they don't bother counting the absentee ballots unless they could make a difference in the outcome. I think the official records should be recording the exact number of votes.

[SWTXBelle]

Mystic Cat, you were not the only one to bring up the issue of identification being forged, which is why I did not quote you or name you. I apologize if you feel that you were lumped into the group of strident opponents to voter id; I trust your post has now clarified for all that you are not necessarily against voter id but have reservations.

Going back on topic, do you think voter identification would be a problem for college students?

Do those of you who have problems with voter identification also have a problem with federal firearm regulations ( I'm thinking of Title 1 requirements under the Federal Gun Control Act of 1968) ? I raised the issue earlier as being perhaps the issue most directly comparable to voter identification efforts. Of interest might be this opening section :

SEC. 101.The Congress hereby declares that the purpose of this title is to provide support to Federal, State, and local law enforcement officials in their fight against crime and violence, and it is not the purpose of this title to place any undue or unnecessary Federal restrictions or burdens on law-abiding citizens with respect to the acquisition, possession, or use of firearms appropriate to the purpose of hunting, trapshooting, target shooting, personal protection, or any other lawful activity, and that this title is not intended to discourage or eliminate the private ownership or use of firearms by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, or provide for the imposition by Federal regulations of any procedures or requirements other than those reasonably necessary to implement and effectuate the provisions of this title.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Mystic Cat, you were not the only one to bring up the issue of identification being forged, which is why I did not quote you or name you. I apologize if you feel that you were lumped into the group of strident opponents to voter id; I trust your post has now clarified for all that you are not necessarily against voter id but have reservations.

No problem.

Going back on topic, do you think voter identification would be a problem for college students?

Possibly. To me, for a photo ID law to make any sense, the ID needs to be government issued. I think it is likely that as a group, college students are probably more likely to have such IDs, but I don't want to assume that's the case.

Just like I don't want assume that photo IDs will solve a real problem. Like I've said, for me step one is to establish the nature and extent of the problem, if there really is one. There's just no point in talking about possible solutions if we,ve skipped that first step. And when I see people sidestepping that first step, I can't help but think it's because combatting voter fraud isn't really what people are trying toa accomplish. Voter fraud is just the easy excuse.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

And when I see people sidestepping that first step, I can't help but think it's because combatting voter fraud isn't really what people are trying toa accomplish. Voter fraud is just the easy excuse.

Cheers!

[SWTXBelle]

Hand to God, I don't wish to deny any legal voter the right to register his/her vote.

I also don't know how extensive any voter fraud is; it just seems to me that proving your identify before voting is a common sense approach to insuring the integrity of the vote.

eta - The issues with electronic voting apparatus, brought up earlier, really scare me.