The Confederate Flag

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

For clarity's sake:

This form of the swastika



Not this form of the swastika




/turning into MysticCat

You win awesome points for the day!

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

Being a Northerner, I just don't get it. How can anyone possibly be proud of their Southern heritage to the point of flying a Confederate flag (the obvious one) without that being based on racism? How can you be proud of ancestors who participated in something despicable?

I really don't know what to say other than it is obvious that you don't get it, and to be honest, I don't have the energy right now to try and explain it. Like some others here, I tire of non-Southerners dismissing the whole thing with an "I just don't get it."

Suffice it to say that symbols can have different meanings to different people. The wise and thoughful person is aware of that and takes into account both what they themselves understand a symbol to mean and what they know others might understand the symbol to mean. And that can work both ways.

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

I completely and absolutely disagree. Yes, these atrocities are very different but if we're looking at flags and what they represent I would hardly call centuries of slavery, unspeakable violence, rape and murder a "molehill".

Again, flags represent different things to different people.

I'm sure that you know that participation in the slave trade and all the atrocities that went with it was not limited to Southerners. It involved people from all over America (not to mention the British and many other non-Americans), and it was sanctioned and supported by federal law. Does that mean the American flag is tainted?

To be clear: I'm not so much trying to defend any Confederate flag, much less the Confederacy itself, as I am trying to highlight this point: I think one of the biggest hinderances to understanding other people or other perspectives is the phrase "I just don't get it," or its cousin, "I just don't understand how people can think that." If no effort has been put into trying to understand another's perspective, it's a cop-out and that just reinforces one's own biases. Understanding another's perspective doesn't mean agreement with it, but it does mean being open to the possiblity that maybe, just maybe, there is more than one way to see things.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Again, flags represent different things to different people.

I am not affected by the flag, as I understand that not everyone flying it is proclaiming his/her racism. Yes, there are other symbols that could be used, but these individuals have chosen this one.

I've lived in the north and the south, and I never got the "OMG look at the flag. Let him/her show up in MY neighborhood and we'll have a rumble!" vibe. I'm not sure where folks are getting that.

[ElieM]

I wish the confederacy had gone with the flag with the crescent and palmetto on it. I wonder if the people who use the flag now as a symbol of "white pride" would feel as comfortable using it with a "muslim" symbol on it

[DubaiSis]

Seriously, some gangbangers are using the John Deere logo? I am SOOOOO laughing out loud right now. I am from the heart of John Deere country and I keep thinking of my BIL as a secret gang banger instead of a corn and soybean farmer.

Also not having a dog in this fight, I think if you want to express your southern pride there are about 10,000 ways you can do it besides waving a rebel flag, which as discussed above isn't even technically an official conferate flag. Forget flags and "be southern" in your accent and enthusiastically welcoming behavior. If the woman was southern in that way, would she have made the news?

Why would you want to celebrate your southern'ness in such a hateful and negative way?

My husband used to work with a Jewish guy (yes, here in Dubai) whose family apparently were slave owners somewhere in the south, although they are currently and for some time from the San Francisco area. He feels the need to display the rebel flag and brag that Jews were slave owners too. Wow. Good for him. But he's exactly that guy. People are going to be nice to him even though he's in a place where I'd try to keep it on the downlow, but is a huge Star of David around his neck necessary? Only if you're TRYING to cause trouble. And that's all the rebel flag does as far as I'm concerned.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

Forget flags and "be southern" in your accent and enthusiastically welcoming behavior. If the woman was southern in that way, would she have made the news?

Being southern in your accent and welcoming behavior brings images of Paula Deen to my mind. Probably not the image many southerners connect with.

When this topic gets brought up - which seems to happen annually here at GC - I can't help but remember this lovely southern gem.

(Yes, I've posted this before. I know I shouldn't recycle images, but some images are burnt into my brain forever and this is one of them. As sad as that may be.)

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

Also not having a dog in this fight, I think if you want to express your southern pride there are about 10,000 ways you can do it besides waving a rebel flag, which as discussed above isn't even technically an official conferate flag. Forget flags and "be southern" in your accent and enthusiastically welcoming behavior. If the woman was southern in that way, would she have made the news?

Since you say you don't have a dog in this fight, how about refrain from telling Southerners how to express their Southernness, okay? Sorry, but to be honest, that really borders on arrogance.

[AOII Angel]

Looks like rebel flag prom dress girl went to the dance by herself.

Count me in as a born and bred southerner that cringes when I see the Stars and Bars flying. I think for most of our states, the history is too tinged with violence connected to that flag, and throwing it up in the faces of our fellow citizens is rude and inflammatory. Yes, you have the right to fly that flag, but you can also be rude to someone's face. We just don't do that in the south...it's called southern hospitality.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

We just don't do that in the south...it's called southern hospitality.

Meh...

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Count me in as a born and bred southerner that cringes when I see the Stars and Bars flying.

Just 'cause I have to be a nerd for Dr. Phil, this is the Stars and Bars:

I think for most of our states, the history is too tinged with violence connected to that flag, and throwing it up in the faces of our fellow citizens is rude and inflammatory.

Believe it or not, I tend to agree, though I think the Battle Flag and the variation of it used by the Klan and others, rather than the Stars and Bars, are the flags that became so connected with racism for so many that their use can be inflammatory and insensitive, even when there is no racist motive at all.

There are two things I have a problem with in this thread, frankly: The woman who started the whole thing, and the I'm-Not-A-Southerner-And-Just-Don't-Get-It mentality, which I think has its own whiff of prejudice.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Just 'cause I have to be a nerd for Dr. Phil, this is the Stars and Bars:

You are awesome.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

There are two things I have a problem with in this thread, frankly: The woman who started the whole thing, and the I'm-Not-A-Southerner-And-Just-Don't-Get-It mentality, which I think has its own whiff of prejudice.

Definitely Ditto.

If you will say "I don't get it" no matter how much it is explained to you, you either (1) are not listening; (2) refuse to hear; or (3) have massive brain farts. People should learn to "get it" while disagreeing with it. You cannot disagree with it if you do not "get it."

And, as with many topics, this isn't a Southerner vs. nonSoutherner topic even when making generalizations. Just as there are nonSoutherners who "get it" and/or sport the Confederate symbols, there are Southerners who do not "get it" and/or do not sport the Confederate symbols.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

If you will say "I don't get it" no matter how much it is explained to you, you either (1) are not listening; (2) refuse to hear; or (3) have massive brain farts. People should learn to "get it" while disagreeing with it. You cannot disagree with it if you do not "get it."

You just said so well and succinctly what I was struggling to say. More awesome points for the day!

[Leslie Anne]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I really don't know what to say other than it is obvious that you don't get it, and to be honest, I don't have the energy right now to try and explain it. Like some others here, I tire of non-Southerners dismissing the whole thing with an "I just don't get it."

Suffice it to say that symbols can have different meanings to different people. The wise and thoughful person is aware of that and takes into account both what they themselves understand a symbol to mean and what they know others might understand the symbol to mean. And that can work both ways.

I believe you're misunderstanding what I mean by "I just don't get it". I am in no way dismissing anything. I'm just stating a fact. I don't understand it. I don't know what others understand the Confederate flag to mean. If it's never explained to me then how can I understand it?

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Again, flags represent different things to different people.

I'm sure that you know that participation in the slave trade and all the atrocities that went with it was not limited to Southerners. It involved people from all over America (not to mention the British and many other non-Americans), and it was sanctioned and supported by federal law. Does that mean the American flag is tainted?

Actually, yes I believe it does.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

To be clear: I'm not so much trying to defend any Confederate flag, much less the Confederacy itself, as I am trying to highlight this point: I think one of the biggest hinderances to understanding other people or other perspectives is the phrase "I just don't get it," or its cousin, "I just don't understand how people can think that." If no effort has been put into trying to understand another's perspective, it's a cop-out and that just reinforces one's own biases. Understanding another's perspective doesn't mean agreement with it, but it does mean being open to the possiblity that maybe, just maybe, there is more than one way to see things.

I'm completely open to trying to understand a different perspective. This has all been discussed here before but then, like now, no one has actually tried to explain it. You're assuming that I haven't put any effort into trying to understand it. That's not true. I have put effort into it. I'm more than willing to listen to an explanation of Southern pride as expressed by waving the Confederate flag without it being racist. The problem is no one seems to be willing to explain it.

You yourself stated that you don't have the energy to explain it. Yet you apparently have plenty of energy to post several times about my "mentality". That's a real cop-out. Why don't you try to be part of the solution? Explain it.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

I believe you're misunderstanding what I mean by "I just don't get it". I am in no way dismissing anything. I'm just stating a fact. I don't understand it. I don't know what others understand the Confederate flag to mean. If it's never explained to me then how can I understand it?

No one has explained it or you have never read about this?

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

I'm completely open to trying to understand a different perspective. This has all been discussed here before but then, like now, no one has actually tried to explain it. You're assuming that I haven't put any effort into trying to understand it. That's not true. I have put effort into it. I'm more than willing to listen to an explanation of Southern pride as expressed by waving the Confederate flag without it being racist. The problem is no one seems to be willing to explain it.

People have explained it. You may not grasp the manner in which they are explaining it. That is subconciously (and perhaps consciously) rooted in your belief that you neither understand nor agree with it. When people disagree with something, they tend to want explanations to be in an awesome package that caters not only to those who need the information but also to those who disagree and need to be convinced.

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

You yourself stated that you don't have the energy to explain it. Yet you apparently have plenty of energy to post several times about my "mentality". That's a real cop-out. Why don't you try to be part of the solution? Explain it.

LOL. This was both cute and funny.

Have you never read these types of threads before? Even people in this thread have explained why they have positive feelings about the Confederacy even with its history. Again, their explanation is not designed for you specifically to comprehend using the language that you may need to comprehend. But, it is a discussion and an explanation.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

I'm completely open to trying to understand a different perspective. This has all been discussed here before but then, like now, no one has actually tried to explain it. You're assuming that I haven't put any effort into trying to understand it. That's not true. I have put effort into it. I'm more than willing to listen to an explanation of Southern pride as expressed by waving the Confederate flag without it being racist. The problem is no one seems to be willing to explain it.

You yourself stated that you don't have the energy to explain it. Yet you apparently have plenty of energy to post several times about my "mentality". That's a real cop-out. Why don't you try to be part of the solution? Explain it.

The thing is, as Dr. Phil says, many of us have explained it so many times in so many threads (and elsewhere in life), that we literally grow weary of it. I'm sorry if it comes across as a cop-out, but there it is.

As for the "mentality" comment, what you said was:

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

Being a Northerner, I just don't get it. How can anyone possibly be proud of their Southern heritage to the point of flying a Confederate flag (the obvious one) without that being based on racism? How can you be proud of ancestors who participated in something despicable?

Sorry, but that doesn't sound at all to me like someone who really wants to understand. If it is an expression of wanting to understand, it's worded in a very loaded way -- less "help me understand" and more "defend your obviously wrong actions!" Might as well ask if we're still beating our wives as well.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Just 'cause I have to be a nerd for Dr. Phil, this is the Stars and Bars:




.

Wow...really?! I've heard it called the stars and bars my entire life! You learn something everyday. I know that southern hospitality can get a bad rap, but at it's best, southern hospitality is used to put people at ease and make others feel welcome. It doesn't matter where you are from or who you are. We may talk about you behind your back but to your face, we'll be sweet as pie. Anything left to human nature can be ugly, but the good people of the south would take anyone into their home, feed them a nutritious dinner and welcome them back anytime. Purposely making others feel "uncomfortable" or "unwelcome" has been an ugly part of our past, and I would really like that to stay in the past. It's not who we are or who we should be. Okay...off my soapbox.