Prodigy, product of propaganda, or....? 10 yr old refuses to say Pledge of Allegiance - Page 4

epchick · #46 11-22-2009, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SydneyK

And this would be one of those "something more" kind of instances. To me, this doesn't sound like you think people should stand out of respect to the others around them who are standing, it sounds like people should stand out of respect for soldiers.

You are correct, I don't think that students need to stand up out of respect for their fellow students. I wouldn't do it for that reason, so why should I expect my students to do it? It is out of respect for the soldiers, past and present.

MysticCat · #47 11-22-2009, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by epchick

You are correct, I don't think that students need to stand up out of respect for their fellow students. I wouldn't do it for that reason, so why should I expect my students to do it? It is out of respect for the soldiers, past and present.

I have to say, though, that until your posts on the subject, I've never heard anyone draw a connection between the Pledge and showing respect for soldiers/veterans. I'm not saying it's an improper connection to draw, necessarily, but I've never heard it before.

Munchkin03 · #48 11-23-2009, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I have to say, though, that until your posts on the subject, I've never heard anyone draw a connection between the Pledge and showing respect for soldiers/veterans. I'm not saying it's an improper connection to draw, necessarily, but I've never heard it before.

Really? I grew up in a military town, and that was a connection that was ALWAYS made.

The one JW kid in my class throughout middle school stayed sitting down, but he wasn't reading or doing any work. It's like 30 seconds long so probably not that big of a deal.

MysticCat · #49 11-23-2009, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Really? I grew up in a military town, and that was a connection that was ALWAYS made.

Really, and I've got 40+ years of saying the Pledge under my belt. In my experience, the respect shown in saying the Pledge has been completely related to the flag and to the country.

Mileages do vary, I guess.

Munchkin03 · #50 11-23-2009, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Really, and I've got 40+ years of saying the Pledge under my belt. In my experience, the respect shown in saying the Pledge has been completely related to the flag and to the country.

Mileages do vary, I guess.

Exactly. I wasn't questioning your experience. I figured that while my experience may have been unique, having grown up in a heavily military area (5 installments within an hour's drive), it was far from rare.

DrPhil · #51 11-23-2009, 02:16 PM

After Sept. 11, saying the Pledge and singing The Star Spangled Banner has often been considered in honor of the troops; and a show of solidarity against terrorism.

This has almost always been the case for the SSB, though.

MysticCat · #52 11-23-2009, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPhil

After Sept. 11, saying the Pledge and singing The Star Spangled Banner have often been considered in honor of the troops; and a show of solidarity against terrorism.

In some groups, I'm sure this is the case. Not among all. My son has been saying the Pledge for the last 6 years in school and the last 5 years in Scouts. I can vouch for the fact that a specific connection between the Pledge and honoring the troops (or solidarity against terrorism) has never been drawn in Scouts, and based on conversations with my son, I don't think it has at schooln either.

And maybe I just live in a different world (no comments, please

), but it's never been my experience with the SSB either. In my experience, both the Pledge and the SSB are about country. While veterans are certainly part of the country's history (and present), I've never considered that we honor them -- at least not directly -- through the Pledge or the national anthem. We honor the country they served.

DrPhil · #53 11-23-2009, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticCat

In some groups, I'm sure this is the case. Not among all.

PeppyGPhiB · #54 11-30-2009, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticCat

In some groups, I'm sure this is the case. Not among all. My son has been saying the Pledge for the last 6 years in school and the last 5 years in Scouts. I can vouch for the fact that a specific connection between the Pledge and honoring the troops (or solidarity against terrorism) has never been drawn in Scouts, and based on conversations with my son, I don't think it has at schooln either.

And maybe I just live in a different world (no comments, please

), but it's never been my experience with the SSB either. In my experience, both the Pledge and the SSB are about country. While veterans are certainly part of the country's history (and present), I've never considered that we honor them -- at least not directly -- through the Pledge or the national anthem. We honor the country they served.

I agree. Think about the words to the Pledge. We're pledging our "allegiance to the flag...and to the republic for which it stands." It's an oath. If we want to be honest, it's propaganda...which is why "under God" was added into it during McCarthyism. It's a promise to not defy the United States, and nothing more.

tri deezy · #55 12-04-2009, 12:37 AM

I saw a video of the kid being interviewed and some colleagues and I agree that he's almost definitely on the autism spectrum. Not that it matters too much, just something interesting to note.

MysticCat · #56 12-04-2009, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tri deezy

I saw a video of the kid being interviewed and some colleagues and I agree that he's almost definitely on the autism spectrum. Not that it matters too much, just something interesting to note.

Really? I didn't pick that up from the interview I watched at all, but maybe I missed something.

Munchkin03 · #57 12-04-2009, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tri deezy

I saw a video of the kid being interviewed and some colleagues and I agree that he's almost definitely on the autism spectrum. Not that it matters too much, just something interesting to note.

I didn't see that either. He's just a nerdy kid who's a bit more mature than his age. Didn't you see his shirt?

dekeguy · #58 12-04-2009, 04:25 PM

I don't think anyone would seriously challenge the kid's action in courageously standing up for his honestly held convictions. However, as the point has been made several times in this thread one can do so without being rude and ill mannered. I suspect this kid figured out what he could get away with and pushed the point to the consternation of his teacher and probably some if not most of his classmates. Telling his teacher to go jump off a bridge undermines his stance on principle and reveals him as a rude attention seeking little nerd. I think it comes under the heading of knowing when to stand up for what one believes and when to shut up.
I am a combat veteran and I willingly put my neck on the line to defend the freedoms this kid exercised. No problem so far. But, when he was rude and disruptive he lowered himself to the level of a spoiled brat and that alters things a bit.
I am reminded of the dialog in, I believe, "A Man For All Seasons" when King Henry VIII begins to exercise powers he had previously refrained from employing to force his will.
Sir Thomas Moore is talking with his successor as Lord Chancellor, Sir Richard Cromwell. "Ah Master Cromwell, this is an evil day, you have taught him what he CAN do, not what he SHOULD do".

ree-Xi · #59 12-04-2009, 06:08 PM

I have really enjoyed reading the different opinions on the topic. Although when I first read the article and saw the video, I wasn't sure myself what I thought.

But after considering the many viewpoints, I stopped to think about what I thought the PoA stood for. To me, it represents the freedoms and liberties afforded to those protected under it - ie. citizens, refugees, etc.

As for the connection to the military, especially post 9/11, when the flag was hung upside down (some say it's protocol to do when we are in trouble, others say it was a mistake), when everyone was wearing those flag pins, the flag itself became a symbol of unity against terrorism. A couple of hundred years ago, the flag began as a symbol against tyranny and a new world. So there is a direct connection, because thousands have died protecting those freedpoms.

I think that regardless of one's feelings about reciting the PoA, I think that if you are in a place where people stand and revere it, it's a matter of basic manners to at least stand up with others. Someone else said it's like when they play another countries' national anthem/flag raise at say, a hockey game, the olmpics, etc.

Regardless of where the kid got his idea, he was being disrespectful in the manner in which he defended his rights and the way he spoke to the teacher. To that, it increases my suspicion that the kid did not come up with this himself. His dad's enthusiasm was rewarding behavior that the child didn't fully understand, and did what he thought was going to be "right" or controversial.

tri deezy · #60 12-07-2009, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I didn't see that either. He's just a nerdy kid who's a bit more mature than his age. Didn't you see his shirt?

It was a few little things. One was the fact that he was really concerned with the literal meaning of the pledge being discordant with gay rights. If he is on the spectrum, he's really mild. Maybe Aspergers or PDD-NOS. The kids I teach are much younger and much further on the spectrum, but there are just little things that people working in special education notice about kids. It's hard to describe. I could be totally off-base, of course. I've never met the kid. It's just a hunch. Anyway, I'm proud of him for standing up for something he believes in at that age.

ETA: Not proud of him for disrespecting his teacher, though. Obviously.