too broke to bury their dead

[PM_Mama00]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Moving is an option. I'd suggest, if nothing else, that they break out of this 'woe is me' B.S. and do something to improve their own situation. Moving might be the best thing for some people as clearly there are more economic opportunities elsewhere, but that clearly isn't the best for everyone.

I imagine in the near future, in places like Detroit where the population is plummeted, the city or some governmental entity will start condemning entire blighted neighborhoods, giving owners the financial opportunity to relocate elsewhere in the city or to another metropolitan area. This is almost a certainty because current city services simply cannot service the population as spread out as it is and continued urban decay is a substantial certainty.

If there was one whit of leadership at the top, this'd already be going on.

You just proved that you are only paying attention to what you want to in our posts.

PEOPLE CAN'T MOVE BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO MONEY. MOVING COSTS MONEY. PEOPLE CAN'T SELL THEIR HOUSE. THEY CAN'T PAY FOR A SECOND HOUSE IN ANOTHER LOCATION BECAUSE THEY HAVE LOST THEIR JOBS/BUSINESS THEREFORE HAVING NO MONEY TO MOVE.

Do you understand now?

[Kevin]

There's always bankruptcy. People go that route all the time. Sometimes you just have to start over. Quit pretending there are no choices. It was cute for awhile, but not anymore.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally Posted by Kevin

There's always bankruptcy. People go that route all the time. Sometimes you just have to start over. Quit pretending there are no choices. It was cute for awhile, but not anymore.

Why don't you take some of your daddy's money and help people? I bet your one of those people who flaunts their money, basks in their richness, and doesn't give a shit about helping those less fortunate. There's special places in hell for people like you.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

Why don't you take some of your daddy's money and help people? I bet your one of those people who flaunts their money, basks in their richness, and doesn't give a shit about helping those less fortunate. There's special places in hell for people like you.

Rude.

Assumptions are not a pretty thing and you've made yourself quite clear. And you look very, very stupid. Michigan is in the place they're in because they caused it. Unions ate their companies alive and with that, lost their livelihood. I feel no compassion for Michigan and hope it collapses further.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

Why don't you take some of your daddy's money and help people? I bet your one of those people who flaunts their money, basks in their richness, and doesn't give a shit about helping those less fortunate. There's special places in hell for people like you.

You don't know a damned thing about me, although I make no attempt whatsoever to be anonymous here.

That's funny though.

As for not giving a shit about the less fortunate, I don't quite buy into your train of thought. Folks who live in Detroit are not "less fortunate," they are poor decision makers.

There are the people who are truly "less fortunate." I consider those folks to be people born with birth defects, disease, Downs Syndrome and whatnot. Those are the truly less fortunate.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

Why don't you take some of your daddy's money and help people? I bet your one of those people who flaunts their money, basks in their richness, and doesn't give a shit about helping those less fortunate. There's special places in hell for people like you.

Really?

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Really?

No. Not really.

Hhahaha, remember those commercials?

[DaemonSeid]

Wow.

If I had known what this would have started I may have thunk twice about posting this article.

Actually I did and I thought it was a good idea.

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Wow.

If I had known what this would have started I may have thunk twice about posting this article.

Actually I did and I thought it was a good idea.

Yeah....regardless of how Detroit got into this mess, it's in this mess, and I feel for the people too poor to bury a relative.

That's sad, and I don't care about unions that much one way or the other, but it's sad that people are too poor to cremate their own, whether their own family or their own citizens.

[dreamseeker]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

Why don't you take some of your daddy's money and help people? I bet your one of those people who flaunts their money, basks in their richness, and doesn't give a shit about helping those less fortunate. There's special places in hell for people like you.

wow, i think that this topic has you a lil too emotional (which is understandable) and while i don't agree with everything that Kevin and others have said, maybe you should step away from the computer for a bit. or from this thread, at the very least. and i mean that in the most respectful manner.

Originally Posted by Kevin

There's always bankruptcy. People go that route all the time. Sometimes you just have to start over. Quit pretending there are no choices. It was cute for awhile, but not anymore.

i was always thought that this is the worst thing you can do, it wrecks your credit for at least 7 yrs and even after that financial institutions still ask if you've ever filed.

i mean maybe at that point its the best option anyway? just curious about ur thoughts in those respects.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

Rude.

Assumptions are not a pretty thing and you've made yourself quite clear. And you look very, very stupid. Michigan is in the place they're in because they caused it. Unions ate their companies alive and with that, lost their livelihood. I feel no compassion for Michigan and hope it collapses further.

No, I don't think that person is making assumptions. From what I have read on here, Kevin has written some posts indicating that his family is wealthy.

I also think the only people who look stupid on here are the ones who are so out of touch with reality that they think the solution is just to move. Also, regardless of what "Michigan" did to itself, what does that really have to do with individuals who are suffering? For example, the governor of my state has made some poor choices, but I'm not going to say that INDIVIDUALS deserve to suffer because of mistakes made by people who have nothing to do with them.

And yes, there is a special place for people who think like Kevin and promote that line of thinking. First and foremost we are all supposed to have some compassion for our fellow man. Those who think they are immune to problems, especially financial ones, often end up in the place they derided others for being. So Kevin and anyone else who feels that way should be very careful because one day you may be in the same position as these people.

And on another note, it always amuses me how the same three or four people use every thread to show off their "intellectual" side. Notice I out that word in quotes. That's because it is really questionable as to whether the intellect is really there or if it just more hot air. But I would venture to say that if you REALLY know how to solve all these problems, why don't you run for office or make your voices heard somewhere other than a message board?

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

Rude.

Assumptions are not a pretty thing and you've made yourself quite clear. And you look very, very stupid. Michigan is in the place they're in because they caused it. Unions ate their companies alive and with that, lost their livelihood. I feel no compassion for Michigan and hope it collapses further.

The "assumptions" are based on things posted in this thread: http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...ad.php?t=85608

I completely agree that the UAW got greedy and often got benefits and pay that were way above what people in other industries received and that is one piece of the puzzle in the auto industry collapse. However, the sharp rise in gas prices, the stock market dive, banks going under and the credit freeze escalated the situation to a crisis far faster than these industries could react. All of them have been repositioning, downsizing, eliminating brands as they became obsolete, etc. since the energy crisis of '74. The early 80's were really rough and a lot of people moved then while unemployment was quite high, but it was NOTHING compared to this collapse in part, because it was ONLY the auto industry that time. It wasn't the banking industry. Home values didn't drop by 50%, leaving so many people in a "reverse mortgage" situation. Companies still had other investments that they could lean on when the auto industry stocks went down. Individuals still had other investments that they could lean on when they lost their jobs and most had equity built up in the homes.

Time magazine is doing an interesting piece on the collapse of Detroit. I have heard a few things about it but haven't had a chance to read it yet. I used to subscribe to Time but I stopped because, well, I've been cutting "luxuries" out of our budget in my household, just in case.

For those of us who are still employed and doing ok, there is actually a little bit of survivor guilt. I feel very lucky that I had the upbringing that I did and I admit openly on here that I get defensive about the auto industry because I owe everything I have to GM. Because my dad was a white collar worker at GM, we were very solidly middle class (once he had put in some time, I should add.. he definitely worked his way up the ladder and he definitely started at the bottom rung and things were quite lean when I was too young to know better). My dad was the first person in his family EVER to go to college and it served him well. It also made my uncle realize that he too could go to college and he ended up with a PhD. Because of that, education was valued in my immediate family. There was never a question of whether you go to college or not, the life plan was "graduate from high school, go to college, get a good job". Nobody said "You must go to college", I just don't ever remember considering that not going to college was an option in life. If I hadn't gotten the scholarships that paid my way, they would have co-signed for loans to make sure it happened. I also know that I won't ever end up homeless because my family simply wouldn't let it happen. We were not wealthy, there was no trust fund, but there was enough and there was family support. My parents were both able to make sure there was life insurance to cover things like their funeral expenses. All of that *is* privilege.

I often get confused on this board because people refer to the auto industry as "Detroit". The problems in the city of Detroit proper began long before the auto industry collapse. In fact, the city's worst years were in the 70s and 80s. There's a reason we ended up hosting the All Star Game, Super Bowl and the Final Four all in the course of 4 years. There were investors pouring money into the city and the area around Comerica Park and Ford Field was thriving until the past year. During the last decade, the future was looking very bright. Mike Illitch (Little Ceaser's owner and owner of the Red Wings and Tigers) put tons of money into renovating beautiful old theaters and opening new restaurants. Karmanos (CompuWare owner) built his headquarters in the city proper with a surrounding park that has ice skating, shops, restaurants and a Hard Rock Cafe in the same area. People were going to the city and spending their money and many jobs were created by their efforts to rejuvenate the city. A new Riverwalk was built along the river which also was bringing more people in. The Grand Prix was brought back. Things were looking pretty good until two summers ago when gas prices sky rocketed to $4.50 a gallon. Then the housing market started to drop. Then we lost half of our retirement investments. THEN the auto industry collapsed. We could absorb the gradual bleed from the auto industry with other jobs in other industries. The total collapse? No way. The blows keep coming, every single day. One of the wealthiest hospitals in the area is laying people off.. they never had to provide uninsured care before. Even though some of the plants have re-opened and re-started production, their suppliers are going under now (which is why my ex-husband was laid off Monday).

My kids' were very upset, crying when they found out their dad was laid off. (well, my daughter was crying, my 13 year old son is much too macho for that..lol, but he was clearly worried) I reassured them "Your Dad is not going to starve" and they asked "But what if he loses his house?" And, I once again reassured them that he would not be living on the street, that his family would let him stay with them until he got another job. Then I heard "What if he has to move to another state to get a job? How will we do 50-50 custody then?" To this, I have no answer other than "We'll have to figure out what to do if that happens, but we can't worry about that right now. Right now, we have to cut back on some expenses, find other ways to make money for things like the band's trip to Chicago and whatever you do, DO NOT ask your dad for money. DO NOT ask him to go out to eat. DO NOT ask him for anything that requires money. Ask me, we'll make a list and decide what is most necessary." Quite honestly, my biggest fear is not that he'll lose his house. My biggest fear is that he will move out of state. It certainly isn't an option for me because, ironically, my job is more secure than it has ever been. And, even though I've done everything right... decent size down payment, good interest rate, paid the mortgage on time all the time, no home equity loan and no re-financing to pull equity out of the house, I'm in an upside down mortgage. To say "Move" is much easier said than done. MUCH easier said than done. He's the best divorced dad I know. We share 50-50 custody and I've enjoyed that. He shares the parental responsibilities completely and I don't know if I have it in me to do it all by myself. And, from his perspective it's one thing to say "Leave your friends, extended family, your house, your neighborhood and your support system" (as tough as that all is), it's another to say "Leave your kids". I'm not sure people who don't have children can comprehend just how difficult that is to do. In fact, I think it's sadder than not being able to pay to cremate your aunt (there, I tied it back to the article posted somehow).

ETA: I feel compelled to add: When my ex told me on Monday that he lost his job, I had to think long and hard about whether I should drop my grad school class. I had until Wednesday to drop and get my full tuition back and that money could really come in handy now. I had a heart to heart with my dad about it and he told me, under no circumstances, should I drop my class. That he'll help if necessary. I couldn't even verbalize it then, but the thought wasn't just about the money, it was also about "How am I going to do all of this if the ex moves out of state?" But, I went back to grad school to help solidify my own financial security for the future so I feel I have to forge on. I truly am blessed that I have that privilege, at least financially.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by dreamseeker

i was always thought that this is the worst thing you can do, it wrecks your credit for at least 7 yrs and even after that financial institutions still ask if you've ever filed.

i mean maybe at that point its the best option anyway? just curious about ur thoughts in those respects.

There are some advantages and disadvantages. Basically, when looking at bankruptcy, folks have to ask themselves whether they are in a financial hole which is so deep that there's just about no possibility of ever getting out.

For some folks, especially those who own their home and can afford all of their mortgage payments, Chapter 7 (if they qualify) or Chapter 13 if they don't, can really give folks a lot of breathing room and an opportunity to start over.

It's really a question for the individual and it mainly focuses on what type of debts they have and what kind of assets they have and how creditors are secured against those assets. In places like Oklahoma and Florida, homeowners get some pretty amazing protections (here you have an unlimited exemption against unsecured creditors in your homestead including a gun, a church pew, a certain number of chickens, a certain amount of land, implements of husbandry, a milk cow, etc. [you might be able to tell this is a Great Depression holdover, but I digress]).

So no, bankruptcy isn't always the worst thing you can do. Sometimes it's by far the most efficient and smartest way to get out of an impossible hole. Sure it wrecks your credit, but believe me, millions of people do just fine with spectacularly awful credit.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

No, I don't think that person is making assumptions. From what I have read on here, Kevin has written some posts indicating that his family is wealthy.

I also think the only people who look stupid on here are the ones who are so out of touch with reality that they think the solution is just to move. Also, regardless of what "Michigan" did to itself, what does that really have to do with individuals who are suffering? For example, the governor of my state has made some poor choices, but I'm not going to say that INDIVIDUALS deserve to suffer because of mistakes made by people who have nothing to do with them.

And yes, there is a special place for people who think like Kevin and promote that line of thinking. First and foremost we are all supposed to have some compassion for our fellow man. Those who think they are immune to problems, especially financial ones, often end up in the place they derided others for being. So Kevin and anyone else who feels that way should be very careful because one day you may be in the same position as these people.

And on another note, it always amuses me how the same three or four people use every thread to show off their "intellectual" side. Notice I out that word in quotes. That's because it is really questionable as to whether the intellect is really there or if it just more hot air. But I would venture to say that if you REALLY know how to solve all these problems, why don't you run for office or make your voices heard somewhere other than a message board?

So much to say in response to this post. I'll limit it to a couple of things:

1) Again, your assumptions are pretty amazing. You don't know if the posters here are volunteers, if they work on campaigns, etc. You just make snap judgments and run with them.

2) Also, you've said some pretty nasty things in thread on this board. Should we all start making assumptions about what kind of person you are based on your posts?

This is why we shouldn't have any threads on the Detroit situation...

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

So much to say in response to this post. I'll limit it to a couple of things:

1) Again, your assumptions are pretty amazing. You don't know if the posters here are volunteers, if they work on campaigns, etc. You just make snap judgments and run with them.

2) Also, you've said some pretty nasty things in thread on this board. Should we all start making assumptions about what kind of person you are based on your posts?

This is why we shouldn't have any threads on the Detroit situation...

In response to #1: As I have already said, and as someone else pointed out, no assumptions need to be made here. The content of the posts speaks for itself. It is very clear that there is a lack of concern. And based on what has been said, it doesn't matter if someone was a volunteer or not. Clearly if they served in some capacity, the sentiment would be different. You can tell who really hasn't had much experience in dealing with this kind of thing because they make statements that lack common sense. And that is what annoys me about the posts from Kevin and some others. There is a serious lack of common sense going on. I'm still struggling to comprehend the fact that he said "MOVE." REALLY?

In response to #2: most of the "nasty" things I have said have been in response to "nasty" things that were said to me without reason. However, you all have already made assumptions about me based on what you perceive as my "nasty" posts. Don't sit there and act like you (and others) haven't done that.

As far as whether we should or should not have threads on Detroit, this is not a good reason not to have them.