Private Pool Bans Minority Campers

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

These kids may have already experienced some things.

EXACTLY...that's why I wondered where Kevin got that from and why you felt a need to add to it.

These kids may not be as 'traumatized' as you think.

Will it shape their opinion of non blacks? most likely yes.

Will it 'scar' them for life? most likely not.

It's not a trauma...it's LIFE.

Just like everything else kids learn at an early age, this is another.

As long as there has been a palapable difference over how non Blacks felt towards Blacks...kids were an easy target for shaping of their opinions...it's been going on for centuries and from what just happened, it's not stopping anytime soon.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

EXACTLY...that's why I wondered where Kevin got that from and why you felt a need to add to it.

These kids may not be as 'traumatized' as you think.

Will it shape their opinion of non blacks? most likely yes.

Will it 'scar' them for life? most likely not.

I was typing to KEVIN.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I was typing to KEVIN.

I know you were and I felt free to give my opinion...see?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Right on, be that as it may, if they still believe in Santa Clause, why spoil it? Y'know?

Haha...not like you can compare the two but I definitely see where you are coming from.

We agreed that the adults should shelter them from the rest of this stuff. They couldn't shelter the kids from the initial experience. Maybe some adults in their lives are trying to shelter them. We wouldn't expect the media to do so.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

I know you were and I felt free to give my opinion...see?

This is a dumb line of discussion...see?

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This is a dumb line of discussion...see?

Want the last word?

You can have it...

It's ok...

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I say it's because of the overwhelming emotion that anything race related receives in this country. Those kids are being interviewed by a ton of reputable and nonreputable news sources. Some of them have their faces all over the place, including those who were crying. They are going to receive different types of responses from people.

Some of those kids may remember the incident but I wager that they don't know much about this story or anything beyond the fact that they didn't get to swim that day. They may believe whatever angry adults tell them about the incident and its consequences (i.e. them being denied membership when they were never seeking membership). And, as with most kids who are around adults, they can sense the emotions that they are expected to feel and express as Blacks and Hispanics who were allegedly discriminated against by whites. This type of thing can sometimes become an "I'm angry...don't know why...but I am...because I'm supposed to be" situation.

This may be true for some children but we can sometimes underestimate children's observations of race related incidents (and other things). They are not stupid and can sense when they are not welcome, especially if they are not real small. Also in the child's interview (the one that was crying) he expressed that he and the other children heard the members saying "why are those black kids in the pool?" I'm sure he had an idea as to why they were saying that. The bottom line is that some or all of those children will remember that they weren't welcome or wanted because of the color of their skin and that is indeed a very powerful message that can in fact be traumatizing for SOME children. I experienced blatant racism for the first time when I was just 7 and it stuck with me for a long time (I can still remember it in detail today) and it did shape my perceptions of whites for a long time until I got older and matured, so no one can predict how this incident or others might affect children.

And I just wanted to point out that I was born and raised in Philly and have also lived in the surrounding suburban areas (currently living in one of those suburbs now), so when I first heard about this story I was not at all surprised. While Philly is pretty diverse with a rather large Black and minority population (like most big cities), the surrounding suburban areas are full of private country clubs, golf clubs, and sports/swim clubs and most are predominantly full of old, white, and upper middle class to wealthy members. And the farther from Philly you travel, the more you are likely to encounter some form of racism, although more subtle than blatant these days. So this story sounded normal and familiar to me...sad to say. While things have improved over the years and continue to get better and better, we have a long way to go still in parts of PA. regarding racism...and classism for that matter.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

This may be true for some children but we can sometimes underestimate children's observations of race related incidents (and other things). They are not stupid and can sense when they are not welcome, especially if they are not real small. Also in the child's interview (the one that was crying) he expressed that he and the other children heard the members saying "why are those black kids in the pool?" I'm sure he had an idea as to why they were saying that. The bottom line is that some or all of those children will remember that they weren't welcome or wanted because of the color of their skin and that is indeed a very powerful message that can in fact be traumatizing for SOME children. I experienced blatant racism for the first time when I was just 7 and it stuck with me for a long time (I can still remember it in detail today) and it did shape my perceptions of whites for a long time until I got older and matured, so no one can predict how this incident or others might affect children.

I addressed this in my other post when I stated that my first experience with racism was in elementary school. I kind of knew what I was experiencing back then and there were no adults there to prepare me for it or guide me through it. I was still a child using child logic and reasoning. And, with a bunch of kids involved with this story, I'd bet that some of them aren't too keen on what happened and will go with the flow of outrage and emotions. Those who overheard the comments and had more experience with the sense of feeling unwelcome would know. However, as with my experience, kids are still kids. That's why they need adults.

What I was mostly talking about in the post you quoted was the over the top news reports, interviews, and responses from adults that those kids will most likely be exposed to. Those kids don't need all of that.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

This may be true for some children but we can sometimes underestimate children's observations of race related incidents (and other things). They are not stupid and can sense when they are not welcome, especially if they are not real small. Also in the child's interview (the one that was crying) he expressed that he and the other children heard the members saying "why are those black kids in the pool?" I'm sure he had an idea as to why they were saying that. The bottom line is that some or all of those children will remember that they weren't welcome or wanted because of the color of their skin and that is indeed a very powerful message that can in fact be traumatizing for SOME children. I experienced blatant racism for the first time when I was just 7 and it stuck with me for a long time (I can still remember it in detail today) and it did shape my perceptions of whites for a long time until I got older and matured, so no one can predict how this incident or others might affect children.

And I just wanted to point out that I was born and raised in Philly and have also lived in the surrounding suburban areas (currently living in one of those suburbs now), so when I first heard about this story I was not at all surprised. While Philly is pretty diverse with a rather large Black and minority population (like most big cities), the surrounding suburban areas are full of private country clubs, golf clubs, and sports/swim clubs and most are predominantly full of old, white, and upper middle class to wealthy members. And the farther from Philly you travel, the more you are likely to encounter some form of racism, although more subtle than blatant these days. So this story sounded normal and familiar to me...sad to say. While things have improved over the years and continue to get better and better, we have a long way to go still in parts of PA. regarding racism...and classism for that matter.

That is a very good point which you can fill in almost any big name city and use as your example.

Times and modes of information delivery may have changed, but some behaviors obviously haven't.

You can look at narratives from 100 years ago and of course find the most blatant forms of racism and how they shaped people then into who they are today.

I think part of the 'shock factor' comes from the idea that we tend to think that although we are 100 years removed from those times, we would have advanced socially from those thoughts and words and be more 'enlightened' in race relations. Not so as this incident shows. Some of us are still surprised when things like this happen.

For example, refer to the Jena incident but not all that happened afterwards but what touched it off in the first place: A tree.

Heck, look what just happened at the Holocaust museum and that shows you how an 80 something year old man still perpetuated the hate that he STILL retained after all of these years. he's not removed from the blatant hate that people felt towards minorities in his younger days. Those folks that were involved as well as those watching I am sure formed opinions based on that too. All it takes is one bad apple to ruin it for the rest of the bunch.

Moving right along.

What I have found...odd..is how I have heard some commentators state how in the world that we have a Black president and this is still going on? Like the election of Obama was supposed to change anything? Really?

People will still be people and some will still state the obvious of what's on their minds and get looked at for their obtuse point of view.

But, let's all remember, it's a 'free country' and we have to be mindful what happens when we exercise our 'freedom of speech'.

[DaemonSeid]

Update: Swim Club to make arrangements to ask kids to come back to club. Some parents will refuse to send their kids back.

[Little32]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

This may be true for some children but we can sometimes underestimate children's observations of race related incidents (and other things). They are not stupid and can sense when they are not welcome, especially if they are not real small. Also in the child's interview (the one that was crying) he expressed that he and the other children heard the members saying "why are those black kids in the pool?" I'm sure he had an idea as to why they were saying that. The bottom line is that some or all of those children will remember that they weren't welcome or wanted because of the color of their skin and that is indeed a very powerful message that can in fact be traumatizing for SOME children. I experienced blatant racism for the first time when I was just 7 and it stuck with me for a long time (I can still remember it in detail today) and it did shape my perceptions of whites for a long time until I got older and matured, so no one can predict how this incident or others might affect children.

Exactly. Children are much more perceptive than most folks give them credit for. For those of us who have experienced racism, we remember it with great clarity to this day, even though there were no reporters interviewing us about the incident and plastering our faces everywhere. (I, for instance, was first called the n-word in first grade. And I remember to this day how it made me feel and my response to it.) Let's not try to write off or minimize the impact of the experience of racism (whether perceived or actual) that this event will undoubtably have in some of these children's lives.

[Little32]

Shultzzz, who is too much of a coward to post in the actual thread, please do not send me any more stupid pms. Thanks.

Originally Posted by shultzz

Is that any different than the campers having contradicting opinions?


PS. Who destroyed the the free pools in the black neighborhoods?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Little32

(whether perceived or actual)

This sidenote says a lot. Perception and reality are shaped by a number of things, including age and life experience. I was upset when I had my experience in elementary school. But, I don't know how I would have felt if I had outraged adults guiding my thoughts, actions, and interpreting the incident for me. Perhaps I would've been scared and way more upset than I should've been based on the incident alone.

That added social-psychological effect is essentially what Kevin and I are talking about. The kids couldn't be shielded from the incident and how it made them feel (those of them who genuinely feel something). The rest is up to the adults around them.

[DrPhil]

Congratulations, Little32 for being targeted by a troll. That means you're cool.

[Little32]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This sidenote says a lot. Perception and reality are shaped by a number of things, including age and life experience. I was upset when I had my experience in elementary school. But, I don't know how I would have felt if I had outraged adults guiding my thoughts, actions, and interpreting the incident for me. Perhaps I would've been scared and way more upset than I should've been based on the incident alone.

That added social-psychological affect is essentially what Kevin and I are talking about. The kids couldn't be shielded from the incident and how it made them feel (those of them who genuinely feel something). The rest is up to the adults around them.

I agree that the media around this is "extra," while still maintaining that the incident itself is noteworthy for some of the reasons that we are discussing in this thread. I felt, though, that some of the tone of what I was reading was minimizing the incident itself. I would ask whether your position and that of your parents also impacted the way that you negotiated your experience and the tools that were available to you to make sense of the incident. To be very honest, not everyone is lucky enough to have those tools.

So shultzz is a troll. Yeah, I will pass on that level of cooldom. :neutral: