Michael Vick and Job offer

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by I.A.S.K.

I LOLd at the bolded. Man that was the best joke I've heard all day!
Personally, I think some people seem to forget that they are simply animals. Doesnt make it right or justify it, but some people place way too much value on animals. That may be the reason why a particular state has 4 times as many animal shelters as women's shelters. Vick financed the dog fighting. He watched dogs fight. Beyond that he has never admitted to or been convicted of actually harming dogs himself. So the calims that he needs to have done to him what he did to dogs are pointless because he didnt actually do anything to the dogs. As far as showing remorse goes, I think he's done that. He should get out of jail and play for any NFL team that wants him. (And there are some teams that could use him.) Hopefully he's been using his yard time wisely and stayed in shape.

I understand what you're saying, as far as an emotional response to what he did; at the end of the day, he's done his time and should be allowed to move on with his life, like anyone else.

But even looking at it from an unemotional, logical point of view, his financing of the dog fights was a big part of what allowed it to happen, at least on that large scale. Allowing the dog fights to happen is "actually harming" the dogs (unless you know of some types of dog fights where no dogs are harmed). I think it's hard to minimize his culpability in this.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

I understand what you're saying, as far as an emotional response to what he did; at the end of the day, he's done his time and should be allowed to move on with his life, like anyone else.

But even looking at it from an unemotional, logical point of view, his financing of the dog fights was a big part of what allowed it to happen, at least on that large scale. Allowing the dog fights to happen is "actually harming" the dogs (unless you know of some types of dog fights where no dogs are harmed). I think it's hard to minimize his culpability in this.

I don't think anyone is minimizing his culpability (in the sense that he was the 'proximate cause' of the dogfighting and subsequent injuries) - there is no doubt that he has blood on his hands from each dog that died or was injured.

However, while the actual dogfighting is barbaric in and of itself, you can certainly question his involvement in the barbarism that went above and beyond what was 'required' of dogfighting ipso facto. Basically you need to think more like a juror and less like an attorney, is what I'm saying - that whole "'Responsible' means different things" issue.

[KSUViolet06]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4397938

Vick signs 2 year deal with Eagles.

[I.A.S.K.]

I agree with Babypink. Though I am a die hard Pats fan I now have an extra special place in my heart for the Eagles. Vick was the financial backer of a dog fighting ring. He was wrong for what he participated in. He served more than his share of time in prison and has paid his debt. I think far too many people place more value on the lives of animals than they should. Stallworth got 24 days for killing a person and 1 year suspension. Vick's life should not be ruined for a bad decision. Not every person looks at dogs as pets. In many places they're nothing more than another animal and in others they're food. PETA is a very backward organization in many ways. Until PETA figures out that animals are not equal to people I will happily remain a member of PETOP. People for the ethical treatment of other people.
It should also be noted that if Vick's last name was Rothelsberger (sp?) we wouldn't be having this discussion

[33girl]

Originally Posted by I.A.S.K.

It should also be noted that if Vick's last name was Rothelsberger (sp?) we wouldn't be having this discussion

Nice try (by nice I mean really F***ing lame) but Ben has not been convicted or proven guilty, as Vick was. Oh and it's Roethlisberger.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by I.A.S.K.

Stallworth got 24 days for killing a person and 1 year suspension. Vick's life should not be ruined for a bad decision.

I'm really sick and tired of people making this comparison, because it's effing lame. Stallworth was determined to have been negligent and reckless in a one-time incident. He did not have a history of DUI, bad driving, or other reckless behavior. Vick, on the other hand, continued this "operation" for over two years. He didn't just run a dog-fighting ring for a month or two. NO. His "operation" went above and beyond simple dog-fighting. He killed animals who didn't "win," he set up rape racks to allow other dogs to violate each other when it wasn't appropriate, he didn't take care of the animals he had in his ownership.

I'm not an "animal person," I didn't grow up with pets, but I do understand that when you purchase a pet in this country, you are implicitly agreeing to take care of it and not have it killed or raped when it doesn't fill the sick fantasies you and your band of thugs might have for it.

[pbear19]

For those complaining that Vick shouldn't be penalized because other people who do worse things aren't penalized sufficiently, I have a lovely sentiment straight from my mother:

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[rhoyaltempest]

I think it's a trip and SAD how passionate people are about animal rights in comparison to human rights. There are sooooo many people causes to get behind, protest, and fight for. There are soooo many societal ills to correct like racism, sexism, and all the other isms and yet people aren't nearly as passionate about abolishing those. Very sad indeed.

And I am an animal lover.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I'm really sick and tired of people making this comparison, because it's effing lame. Stallworth was determined to have been negligent and reckless in a one-time incident. He did not have a history of DUI, bad driving, or other reckless behavior. Vick, on the other hand, continued this "operation" for over two years. He didn't just run a dog-fighting ring for a month or two. NO. His "operation" went above and beyond simple dog-fighting. He killed animals who didn't "win," he set up rape racks to allow other dogs to violate each other when it wasn't appropriate, he didn't take care of the animals he had in his ownership.

OK - let's make it "Leonard Little" instead. Needless to say, I think this line of reasoning is horrifically flawed.

Also, leaning on "intent" is absolutely irrelevant to the discussion - Stallworth's sentence was unreal light, and is a byproduct of shitty Florida laws mixed with celebrity/wealth. Most states have "instantaneous premeditation" for 1st-degree murder. "Intent" is a VERY loaded word when you kill another person.

I lack the moral compass or authority to determine whether killing a person after repeatedly putting yourself and others at danger via a preventable act (drunken driving) is worse than a pattern of barbarism against animals, but there is certainly some argument that Vick is being maligned MUCH more than those who have killed people or performed acts of barbarism against humans.

[KSigkid]

Wow...figured this would be pretty heated. My thoughts:

I don't have a problem with the Eagles signing Vick. He paid his debt to society, now he's entitled to move on with the rest of his life. He should be able to return to his workplace, so to speak, if someone is willing to hire him.

I do think that what he did was pretty horrible, and I have no problem with the length of his prison sentence. I think the sentence was reasonable, if on the high end of reasonable. I think his celebrity played into that (i.e. sending a message to the dog fighting community through a high profile participant).

He committed a felony, was convicted of it, and served his time. As far as I'm concerned, he should be able to move on with the rest of his life, and hopefully be a productive citizen going forward.

And, for what it's worth, I think the Stallworth sentence was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. He and Leonard Little can go have a couple of drinks and laugh about how they avoided serious criminal consequences.

ETA: For what it's worth, I'd be far more upset if my team signed Stallworth (or Leonard Little, for that matter). Then again, since I was nearly killed by a drunk driver, I have fairly strong feelings on the issue.

[aggieAXO]

You guys are right, I owe an apology to those that live in Philly. It wasn't your decision. Sorry . I do really like your city though I am not sure how I would be able to deal with the winters.

ETA, I am passionate about many things but I became a veterinarian b/c I am most passionate about animals.

[als463]

Originally Posted by I.A.S.K.

I agree with Babypink. Though I am a die hard Pats fan I now have an extra special place in my heart for the Eagles. Vick was the financial backer of a dog fighting ring. He was wrong for what he participated in. He served more than his share of time in prison and has paid his debt. I think far too many people place more value on the lives of animals than they should. Stallworth got 24 days for killing a person and 1 year suspension. Vick's life should not be ruined for a bad decision. Not every person looks at dogs as pets. In many places they're nothing more than another animal and in others they're food. PETA is a very backward organization in many ways. Until PETA figures out that animals are not equal to people I will happily remain a member of PETOP. People for the ethical treatment of other people.
It should also be noted that if Vick's last name was Rothelsberger (sp?) we wouldn't be having this discussion

Are you serious? How come everything has to turn into a race war when a minority commits a crime or does something wrong? I don't care what color Vick is...what he did was horrendous! I can tell you that if Vick was Puerto Rican, I would not be rallying for him because "the man" has got him down. I hate how people pull the race card when it seems convenient. I'll go back to the Dr. Henry Gates discussion. Had he come outside and simply given the Officer his ID card-we wouldn't be discussing "race relations" on GC.

In my personal opinion, sometimes white MALES get the short end of the stick. We are quick to judge and say that white men get everything but, last time I checked they didn't get any special considerations on college admissions applications the way that I do, as a female and a minority. The race card can be a double edged sword. Let's stop making everything about the color of a person's skin. Until we are willing to do that, racial relations will never get better.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by als463

In my personal opinion, sometimes white MALES get the short end of the stick.

I can go either way with the Gates and Vick situations, but this statement is laughable.

[als463]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I can go either way with the Gates and Vick situations, but this statement is laughable.

I stand by what I said. I'm just sick of people making things into color wars. Let's use the "Walmart Beatdown" thing that happened not too far from where I am staying. As soon as the "white" Police Officer took down the "black" old woman-with a knife, you could hear people in the background saying something about this being a race thing. Really? Sure, I think the officer may have been a little too rough but, I believe that had the old woman been "white" the same thing would have happened. Now, reverse the situation. If it was a black cop and a white old woman with a knife-no one would yell "racism" half as loud.

I hate to say this but, I feel as though I need to write a disclaimer about being a minority everytime I have an opinion about racial relations. It seems as though everytime a white person expresses an opinion about race, he or she becomes a racist.

I have to admit, I do like these discussions on GC because I get to see the views of all my fellow Greeks on here. Even if you don't agree with my point of view, I accept that.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by als463

I stand by what I said. I'm just sick of people making things into color wars. Let's use the "Walmart Beatdown" thing that happened not too far from where I am staying. As soon as the "white" Police Officer took down the "black" old woman-with a knife, you could hear people in the background saying something about this being a race thing. Really? Sure, I think the officer may have been a little too rough but, I believe that had the old woman been "white" the same thing would have happened. Now, reverse the situation. If it was a black cop and a white old woman with a knife-no one would yell "racism" half as loud.

I hate to say this but, I feel as though I need to write a disclaimer about being a minority everytime I have an opinion about racial relations. It seems as though everytime a white person expresses an opinion about race, he or she becomes a racist.

I have to admit, I do like these discussions on GC because I get to see the views of all my fellow Greeks on here. Even if you don't agree with my point of view, I accept that.

I agree that we shouldn't cry racism every time something happens to a person of color. I've said that on GC before. That's not what I commented on, though. Your post seemed to insinuate that white men need a "leg up" if they're going to make it in the world. As if they've been held back and need some help getting back on top. THAT is laughable.