What is Kappa Kappa Psi?

[bonelifer]

This is from my understanding but Title IX was only a single reason during the Biennium that each organization went CO-ED. Other reasons included some rogue(progressive) chapters I belive in Arizona were already initiating females/males and sending in the name as a first initial lastname. Another reason and the driving and final force behind such is that we are NON-PROFIT 103(c)(3) organizations and if we hadn't gone CO-ED when the National(United States) law changed later that year we would have lost that designation and would be considered taxable. Also, we aren't SOCIAL and therefore weren't protected by the blanket exemptions for Social Fraternities.

Now for the Director of Bands thing. NO ONE IS TELLING THEM IT'S EASIER. In fact you get a discount overall for colonizing both. Again it's a PERSONAL PERCEPTION by the DOB. AGAIN it all goes back to the FREEWILL of the DIRECTOR OF BANDS . At my school our DOB was KKPsi(Conway, AR), and our ADOB was TBSigma(Conway, AR). They choose to do both because they had prior knowledge. As for what can be done, probably little can be done to change the fact because the NHQ doesn't want to step on the toes of DOB's. It's truely hard enough trying to get a college where neither organization has existed before to colonize. Remember the Colonies you hear about on the National listserve are the one's that started the process and are either continuing or have finished and have became a Chapter. Many will inquire and receive the paperwork and not follow through or fail to finish the process. If you come in and push both organizations when they only want one or the other then you risk alienating them. As you may know DOB's work hard to get to the job they have and don't like someone coming into their program telling them how to run it.

[looseneck4]

What happend in Arizona was not really all that progressive...it was more of a long standing battle between brothers and sisters that ended up in a recognized co-ed chapter- a precurser to the image of our fraternity that now confuses many people today...it's happend at many chapters...I even know of a few where this family quarrel has brought its Psi chapter to the verge of extinction; folks just got tired of arguing with supposed family...and Title IX and all other non social fraternal org. regulations help keep things the way they are (whether the fraternity voted to go Co-ed or not..and yes i know it did)

As for the whole its up to the director as to if he can establish both orgs or not...THAT IS NOT ENTIERLY TRUE.....he/she may want to establish both orgs but the university can tell him NO...that's a problem at a couple of universities now..they have Psi or Tbs and the university will not allow them to establish the other due the orgs being Co-ed..they see it as why have two orgs that serve the same purpose.....

The issue of freemasonry and our fraternity is actually important (some things u think are all ours aren't)....it is a shared history with just about every other fraternity in this and other countries ...from a choice of Colors, grips, and secret passwords; it does stems from that particular organization...its just that some chapters recognize this and, well -some don't ( no big loss to them)

[Milkhakeax]

I think there's a couple problems here, this whole "who is actually better" sort of argument.

The first thing people need to remember that although our purposes are very similar and our past, present, and future is linked, it doesn't mean we need to do everything together. The last time I checked, we were incorporated in the state of Oklahoma seperately, so legally we are separate entities. Although it is important to band together and work together and cherish the bonds we have, in the end we are separate organizations and should recruit in that manner.

I don't understand this TBS mentality of "KKPsi has more colonies/chapters/members/whatever" when their success is in nowhere a sign of our independent success. I'm a Sister by the way, a male one at that. Kappa Kappa Psi's recruiting drive is a testament to it's members and leadership's drive. That's not to say TBS doesn't have the same drive, but since we are a different organization, how can we complain? Shouldn't we be deciding new techniques that will work for us?

It's not even a question of numbers really. Everytime TBS is introduced, even from Sisters, it's "the Sister chapter, Tau Beta Sigma" or something to that effect. Yes we are the Sisters, just like KKPsi is our Brothers. How many here have siblings? Do you expect your siblings to be solely introduced as "thi is my sister/brother, _____?" Even if it is someone else introducing them, not you? No, of course not! It's completely true when the Brothers introduce us as "the Sister chapter" because we are. I don't understand why Sisters willing say they are the Sister chapter with complete disregard to their own organization.

That's neither here nor there, however. To anyone who says that a man shouldn't be in Tau Beta Sigma, or a woman in Kappa Kappa Psi, that is absolutely ridiculous. I think denying anyone is ignoring what the Bonds of our organizations mean. Its that brand of ignorance that hold back both organizations from true potential, both working together and apart.

And also to anyone who says that they went through hell to get in their chapter, you're full of it. If you did, it's called hazing and should never happen, and no ritual, in any GLO is all that hard to go through. Mason ritual isn't that hard to get through, and that's what most GLO's are based off of so I know what I'm talking about.


ITB,

Milkshake

[Empress0105]

Hey Milkshake, Im a lil confused, one minute you are saying we are seperate then the next talking about the "bond"

I have had plenty of female KKPsi members look at me like I am an idiot when i enthusiastically appraoch them and say hey I'm your sister...which technically I am

And I have no problem with men in TBS... I just personally don't see why one would want to join TBS is KKPsi was there, and vice versa...


"...provides service to collegiate bands, encourages the advancement of women in the band profession and promotes and enriches an appreciation of band music..."


not saying it should be banned and forgotten for all eternity, but I personally as myself, don't understand it...

[Milkhakeax]

It really comes down to where a person feels most comfortable and what they want to do. To me, helping women, sometimes even specifically women in music is the best way to devote my time and energy. So yes, it is hard to convince men to join TBS, but many men feel more comfotable there. I did a small survey over the Nat'l Listserve and found dozens of men that felt the same way I do.

I talk of the bond, because we do have a bond. We do things together which is great and I think it's important. I think it is dangerous, however, when it gets to the point where TBS can't exist without KKPsi or the other way around. We should work together and be able to hang out together, but should our sole existance be dependent on the other organization? No, of course not. That's what I mean when I say we have a bond but we are seperate. We are different organizations that should and will work together when it is appropriate. Our measure of success should never be based of KKPsi, however. That's what I mean.

[DGMarie]

I am an alumna of TBS at a school (U of S. Carolina) which has a KKPsi chapter. At the time I was active, we had female only TBS and male only KKPsi. We were a sorority and they were a fraternity and this was just peachy. While we knew that TBS had some chapters which were co ed, we did think that was odd at the time (this was 20 years ago). I do think that the practice of calling the men "sisters" is unusual and seems to stand on fomality rather that practicality.

I would think that if a stronger chapter at a school with both decided to go co ed, it could/would be detrimental to the other chapter. Especially when both groups are focused on the same activity: supporting the band. I understand that this was the case after I graduated from school to my TBS chapter, which declined dramatically from over 50 girls to less than 10.


When a group like TBS functions as purely a female organization, the bond and temperment of the group is very different than when men join it. The actvities change, the conversations change, the meetings change. Especially when the TBS chapter is also a strong social organization for women in the band.

[Milkhakeax]

So should I turn in my letters and forget ritual? I am just as much a lifelong Sister as anyone else, regardless of my gender.

I think it's just a matter of people fear change. The hardcore Brothers/Sisters from all same sex chapters (not all, but at least some) seem to be the most adament in keeping gender lines, and why? How am I, or a female Brother, detrimental to the organization?

[DGMarie]

So should I turn in my letters and forget ritual? I am just as much a lifelong Sister as anyone else, regardless of my gender. I think it's just a matter of people fear change. The hardcore Brothers/Sisters from all same sex chapters (not all, but at least some) seem to be the most adament in keeping gender lines, and why? How am I, or a female Brother, detrimental to the organization?

My point was to simply provide an example of how such a change can cause problems with the other non-coed chapter if one chapter becomes co-ed, particulalry if the chapter which becomes co-ed is seen as more popular/powerful/better etc. than the single sex group.

Of course same sex chapters fear change! Why shouldn't they? Where are the statistics that say changing to co ed is beneficial to both organizations when both exist at the same school as same sex groups? Isn't it possible that the same sex status provides a certain clarity to why the two programs exist at one school simultaneously? That changing to co ed could potentially confuse the issue for incoming band members? It's possible, isn't it?

There is no reason to turn in your badge. However I question the ability to attract new male members into an organization which insists on calling the male initiates "sisters." You have no desire to be a "brother"? and what is wrong with "brother" anyway? Is it showing less respect? It certainly is a much more appropriate title.

[Milkhakeax]

Isn't it possible that the same sex status provides a certain clarity to why the two programs exist at one school simultaneously? That changing to co ed could potentially confuse the issue for incoming band members? It's possible, isn't it?

Which then can be turned around to, why do we have two organizations anyways? You know what, let's get rid of TBS while we're at it!

I don't know about anyone else, but the school I went to had two organizations that had two different personalities and two different styles of business, with a similar purpose: Tau Beta Sigma and Kappa Kappa Psi. We support bands, that's our a major part of our purpose, but in no way does that mean that we are the same or that we should follow the same paths. TBS is different than KKPsi, and the other way around and that's a good thing.

I have no desire to be a Brother because I am not one. I am a Sister in a sorority, and there many other male Sisters that share my sentiments. It's not that there is anything wrong with being a Brother, it's just not who we are. And from a legal stand point, no one within either organization can deny that.

[blkwebman1919]

I always find it interesting that many in the blue and white fam who are part of co-ed chapters generalize that those who are in gender-specific chapters "fear change", as if those chapters "aren't enlightened", or need to "come out of the dark ages", or something along those lines.

Just for the sake of argument: Change for the sake of change isn't necessarily a good thing. In many situations, change means loss of stability, loss of tradition, loss of history, etc., etc.

I was made in a gender-specific chapter of KKPsi and the fact that it was gender-specific had a lot to do with defining its character. I'm a graduate of an HBCU. In the Black Greek community, fraternities are all-male and sororities are all-female. Nothing more, nothing less. We wouldn't have it any other way, and no-one feels discriminated against, or restricted, or what have you.

Honestly, I would recognize a female member of KKPsi (I've met a few and they're cool). I would never (at least not intentionally) snub anyone; that's just not my nature. I even met a couple of male members of TBS many years ago. I have to admit, though, that the term "male sister" still throws me (but, that's just me). I'm "old school", though, so sue me.... ;-)

That being said, I do appreciate that some schools chose to switch to co-ed chapters or decided to colonize as such. They have their reasons and their history. However, DO NOT discount or trivialize the same of us who came through single-sex chapters. Our characteristics define our chapters just as co-ed chapters do theirs. Just as co-ed chapters wouldn't imagine being any other way, neither do single-sex chapters.

[Empress0105]

@ milk....i dont think this is the place to bring up rit...BUT if you really wanna take it to that degree of turning in membership and stuff....


Tau Bata Sigma National Honorary Band Sorority provides service to collegiate bands ENCOURAGES THE ADVANCEMENT OF WOMEN IN THE BAND PROFESSION....you know the rest.


So do I think ti's great that you as a male encourages female involvement in the band...I still gotta wonder why you'd want to do that when it doesnt directly affect you.

Dont take it so personally, like the brother said earlier....those of us from single sex chapters (and it's more than just HBCUs that feel this way...ie Troy State as one example) just have a different outlook on what our orgs should be like....it's the same debate (to me) as wearing nailia in colors not officially recognized as frat or sorority colors (fyi, though I am a member of an HBCU chapter, I do not agree with the "touch of gold"...I personally think it's just as bad as wearing pink or polka dot letters...but again thats just me)

[33girl]

Originally posted by DGMarie
There is no reason to turn in your badge. However I question the ability to attract new male members into an organization which insists on calling the male initiates "sisters." You have no desire to be a "brother"? and what is wrong with "brother" anyway? Is it showing less respect? It certainly is a much more appropriate title.

Pardon my crash, but as a female Alpha Phi Omega member I have gone around with this. You ask is it showing less respect? I believe it definitely would be. Are the female members of KKPsi called "sister"? Do they have any desire to be called "sister"? If not, well then, there's your answer.

[bonelifer]

33girl you are currently missing some facts. Those facts are in the early to mid 1970's Kappa Kappa Psi and Tau Beta Sigma both put it to a vote at the National Convenetion. Kappa Kappa Psi decided that all member of KKPsi would be called Brothers. On the other hand Tau Beta Sigma decided that male members would have the ability to decide whether or not they are a Brother or Sister of Tau Beta Sigma. This is one of those reasons why your comments don't match the discussion at hand. It really wouldn't matter if a female member of Kappa Kappa Psi wanted to be called a sister of Kappa Kappa Psi, since the National Chapter in the 1970's at a regularly called convention put it into KKPsi LAW that they would be called Brother. Therefore it's not as simple as you make it out to be.

[33girl]

Originally posted by bonelifer
33girl you are currently missing some facts. Those facts are in the early to mid 1970's Kappa Kappa Psi and Tau Beta Sigma both put it to a vote at the National Convenetion. Kappa Kappa Psi decided that all member of KKPsi would be called Brothers. On the other hand Tau Beta Sigma decided that male members would have the ability to decide whether or not they are a Brother or Sister of Tau Beta Sigma. This is one of those reasons why your comments don't match the discussion at hand. It really wouldn't matter if a female member of Kappa Kappa Psi wanted to be called a sister of Kappa Kappa Psi, since the National Chapter in the 1970's at a regularly called convention put it into KKPsi LAW that they would be called Brother. Therefore it's not as simple as you make it out to be.

I was responding to Marie's post, in which she says that TBS "insists" on calling the male initiates sisters. Apparently she is the one missing the facts. I didn't realize I was responding to a faulty post. However, my main point is that KKPsi members are called brothers and apparently the female members don't have a problem with it. So I don't see why it couldn't swing both ways.

[DGMarie]

My appologies. I did not mean to ever imply that TBS insists that male member be called sisters. I believe I was replying to this quote:

Milkhakeax: So should I turn in my letters and forget ritual? I am just as much a lifelong Sister as anyone else, regardless of my gender.


Milhakeax was the one who called himself a sister. Whether this is nationally acclaimed policy or not, is it the practice I have seen in several TBS chapters with male members. I think such practice, whether sanctioned or not, would be a turn off to potential male members. Why not just be a brother of TBS? What is so bad about that??