Drinking in Letters

[lucgreek]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Yeah, that's why this whole debate is really ridiculous to most people from small schools.

On my campus (a little less than 10k undergrads) it was completely taboo to be seen drinking with your letters on in public (or have any FB pictures with letters and alcohol). This was pretty universal among all IFC and NPC groups. The reason being was it just plays up the stereotype of greek life being only about partying and drinking. And on a campus our size, it would play into the minds of people to not join because of those stereotypes.

[DrPhil]

(This is not a slight to lucgreek)

I must remind GCers that something being taboo for NPC and/or IFC isn't synonymous with "taboo among Greeks." NPC and IFC aren't the only collegiate GLOs.

(It's the same as when GCers remind NPHCers that we aren't the only ones who stress lifetime commitments, etc. and the way we do things shouldn't be used to judge other GLOs)

I must also remind people that the whole "how will it make Greeks look" is not a universal concern for Greeks across councils and conferences. I only heard NPC/NIC (IFC?) in college who cared about that; and I never heard so much about "the Greek stereotype" until I started posting on Greekchat. NPHCers, for instance, have other concerns and stereotypes that have little to do with drinking and whatever else. Afterall, the Greek stereotype (drinking; the word "frat" being seen as an insult; etc.) is based on the generalized majority, which tends not to include BGLOs, MCGLOs, LGLOs.

Just something to think about.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by lucgreek

On my campus (a little less than 10k undergrads) it was completely taboo to be seen drinking with your letters on in public (or have any FB pictures with letters and alcohol). This was pretty universal among all IFC and NPC groups. The reason being was it just plays up the stereotype of greek life being only about partying and drinking. And on a campus our size, it would play into the minds of people to not join because of those stereotypes.

At my school (a little less than 5k undergrads), the fraternity members all drank in their letters - for the most part, at their own parties - the sororities didn’t. Until.. I saw one sorority member drinking in her letters at a fraternity party. I thought it odd, but obviously didn’t say anything to her about it. Then a few months later, I saw more of her sisters doing the same thing out at the corner college bar (alumnae included), and I just assumed that it was OK in their organization. I think that seeing the split between the groups – the fraternities do it, the sororities don’t – originally just made me think that this is the way it was. Obviously that view eventually changed, but the whole situation wasn’t something I dwelled on.

Thinking back, I was simply told as a new member, “We don’t drink in letters.” No one questioned it, no one thought it to be a ridiculous rule… we just followed it. I think that the reasons why (it’s “disrespectful”) were just assumed… at least on my campus. I can’t say if others had reasons (official or not) explained to them.

The list that I provided earlier is just assumed reasons as to why a national organization might apply this rule.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

For AST, it is on a national level.

I'm not trying to bust people, but that's contrary to what I've seen at multiple schools. (And I don't mean back in the day either.)

When we got an interim president at my alma mater, he really disliked the Greek system. It got to be so that if two students were straggling on home to the dorm and one had on letters and one did not, the one with letters would get written up and the one without would get off scot free - even if they were both in the same state of drunkenness. So people stopped wearing them out for a while because they're not dumb and they didn't want to get busted.

I wish groups would come out and say it IS this/risk management instead of wrapping it in the cloak of "it's disrespectful." As I said previously, if drinking in public is such a bad thing for a member of XYZ to do, they shouldn't do it at all. Plenty of people drink in sweatshirts that include the name of their college or the crest. Is that "disrespectful" to your college?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I'm not trying to bust people, but that's contrary to what I've seen at multiple schools. (And I don't mean back in the day either.)

When we got an interim president at my alma mater, he really disliked the Greek system. It got to be so that if two students were straggling on home to the dorm and one had on letters and one did not, the one with letters would get written up and the one without would get off scot free - even if they were both in the same state of drunkenness. So people stopped wearing them out for a while because they're not dumb and they didn't want to get busted.

I wish groups would come out and say it IS this/risk management instead of wrapping it in the cloak of "it's disrespectful." As I said previously, if drinking in public is such a bad thing for a member of XYZ to do, they shouldn't do it at all. Plenty of people drink in sweatshirts that include the name of their college or the crest. Is that "disrespectful" to your college?

Alpha Sigma Tau Sorority Insignia and Alcohol Use Policy
Alpha Sigma Tau Sorority prohibits collegiate/colony chapter members or alumnae from abusing alcohol or being in a location where alcohol abused while wearing, using utensils with (cups, glasses, pitchers, etc.), or in the presence of Alpha Sigma Tau insignia, ritual regalia, or the Sorority’s Crest.

AST policy
Actually it depends on what they mean by "insignia."

/had this bookmarked for some other reason, I just don't know why.

[33girl]

Abuse =/= use. Plus, if you're at Applebee's drinking a coke and someone across the restaurant is getting shitfaced, what are you to do? Take your shirt off?

And I wasn't saying the policy didn't exist, just that it apparently is being interpreted in different ways by different members.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Abuse =/= use. Plus, if you're at Applebee's drinking a coke and someone across the restaurant is getting shitfaced, what are you to do? Take your shirt off?

And I wasn't saying the policy didn't exist, just that it apparently is being interpreted in different ways by different members.

While I agree, the point is that it's a national policy. And I'd argue that any undergraduate alcohol-allowed event will have alcohol abuse at it barring MAYBE wine at a formal dinner in the house (but since houses are mandated alcohol free... yeah never mind.)

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I'm not trying to bust people, but that's contrary to what I've seen at multiple schools. (And I don't mean back in the day either.)

Directly from AST’s Policy and Position Statements:

Alpha Sigma Tau Sorority Insignia and Alcohol Use Policy

Alpha Sigma Tau Sorority prohibits collegiate/colony chapter members or alumnae from abusing alcohol or being in a location where alcohol is abused while wearing, using utensils with (cups, glasses, pitchers, etc.), or in the presence of Alpha Sigma Tau insignia, ritual regalia, or the Sorority’s Crest.

Now, whether everyone adheres to that or not is a different story.

After reading this again, under this rule, (because the word "abused" was used specifically) I could see having a glass of wine at a nice dinner while wearing your badge as being OK (which I have admittedly done before), but wearing letters to a bar, fraternity party, etc. would be unacceptable… regardless of whether or not it was the person in letters who was actually drinking.

ETA: Drole beat me to it. It takes me 5 years to complete a post.. but it's all good

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

While I agree, the point is that it's a national policy. And I'd argue that any undergraduate alcohol-allowed event will have alcohol abuse at it barring MAYBE wine at a formal dinner in the house (but since houses are mandated alcohol free... yeah never mind.)

If you can say that underage drinking = alcohol abuse, maybe yes.

If you're saying that any time there's an event with undergrads and alcohol everyone's using alcohol in an unsafe manner, no.

My point is that the way the policy is worded is really ambiguous and can get twisted around either way, either to save a chapter's ass or to bust them for things that they aren't necessarily doing. If you don't want people to wear letters to fraternity parties, your policy should say "don't wear letters to fraternity parties." Why is that so hard?

[DrPhil]

I believe AST (and the college/university) are the ones who should be concerned with that.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by 33girl

If you can say that underage drinking = alcohol abuse, maybe yes.

If you're saying that any time there's an event with undergrads and alcohol everyone's using alcohol in an unsafe manner, no.

My point is that the way the policy is worded is really ambiguous and can get twisted around either way, either to save a chapter's ass or to bust them for things that they aren't necessarily doing. If you don't want people to wear letters to fraternity parties, your policy should say "don't wear letters to fraternity parties." Why is that so hard?

Although it's not clear, I think it's pretty clear. (if that makes sense)

To say specifically, “Don’t wear your letters to a fraternity party,” then creates room for someone to say, “Well, what about at the bar?” … then they specifically mention the bar, and then someone is bringing an AST mug to a friend’s house to get wasted. Then they have to specifically say each and every item you cannot have at these events and so on and so forth.


IMO, it’s basically saying “anywhere alcohol has the potential to (obviously) be abused, don’t wear anything having to do with the sorority.” If anyone wants to try to work around that somehow, be my guest, but I’d strongly advise against it.

And yes, someone could get wasted sitting at the bar in Applebee’s, but there’s a big difference in wearing your badge out to a dinner where the guy across the restaurant from you is denied another beverage, and wearing a lettered t-shirt to a fraternity party where you go every week and know that half the people there get sloshed. To compare the two is kind of silly.

[aephi alum]

I don't think I mentioned this in my earlier post...

My local sorority drew a very strict line where alcohol was concerned. We were not allowed to wear letters anywhere alcohol was being served. So you wouldn't ever be in a situation where you're sitting at Applebee's wearing your badge/letters and drinking a coke and the guy across the restaurant is being denied another beverage, because you wouldn't be allowed to wear your badge/letters into the Applebee's in the first place. It also eliminated the ambiguity of "is she really drinking just a coke, or is it a rum and coke, which is a no-no?"

Pledge rings were ok. They kind of had to be ... we were required to wear them at all times, and given that most restaurants around campus (and one dining hall on campus) had liquor licenses, our dining options would have been severely limited during our pledge period!

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by 33girl

If you can say that underage drinking = alcohol abuse, maybe yes.

If you're saying that any time there's an event with undergrads and alcohol everyone's using alcohol in an unsafe manner, no.

My point is that the way the policy is worded is really ambiguous and can get twisted around either way, either to save a chapter's ass or to bust them for things that they aren't necessarily doing. If you don't want people to wear letters to fraternity parties, your policy should say "don't wear letters to fraternity parties." Why is that so hard?

Yes, illegal use of the substance is considered abuse, as is binge drinking. I didn't say that everyone would be abusing alcohol, but that abuse would be occurring at any undergrad event. Their policy might be worded ambiguously but it lets them say "just don't drink in your letters."

[als463]

I hope I don't sound like a horrible alumna for saying this but, even as a Chemical Dependency Therapist, if I saw a sister wearing letters at Applebees and she was having a martini, mixed frozen drink, etc.-I would think nothing of it (if she wasn't acting out of hand and getting sloshed).

If I saw a sister wearing letters at the bar, throwing back a few (too many) and making people think, "Wow, sisters of Phi Mu must be a bunch of drunken party girls," I would have a problem with that.

For me (not other GLOs-meaning I'm not pushing my belief on other people of other GLOs to feel the same as me), I would not make an issue of it if it wasn't being done in excess.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

Although it's not clear, I think it's pretty clear. (if that makes sense)

To say specifically, “Don’t wear your letters to a fraternity party,” then creates room for someone to say, “Well, what about at the bar?” … then they specifically mention the bar, and then someone is bringing an AST mug to a friend’s house to get wasted. Then they have to specifically say each and every item you cannot have at these events and so on and so forth.

Then DO that. List every instance. Honestly, it's not that hard. It's the same thing as the hazing policies - they're so ambiguous that they can either CYA or hang you out to dry.

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

IMO, it’s basically saying “anywhere alcohol has the potential to (obviously) be abused, don’t wear anything having to do with the sorority.” If anyone wants to try to work around that somehow, be my guest, but I’d strongly advise against it.

Actually, no, that isn't what it's saying at all.

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

And yes, someone could get wasted sitting at the bar in Applebee’s, but there’s a big difference in wearing your badge out to a dinner where the guy across the restaurant from you is denied another beverage, and wearing a lettered t-shirt to a fraternity party where you go every week and know that half the people there get sloshed. To compare the two is kind of silly.

But the way the policy is written - "being in a location where alcohol is abused" - fits it perfectly. If someone was being vengeful and really wanted to bring a sister up to standards, they could do so in that instance and it would fit the policy. The policy doesn't say that the person has to be sitting next to you, it just says "a location."

I'm not picking on AST here, I'm sure many if not most Greek orgs have similar ambiguous policies on a variety of things.