Throwing without Knowing?

[HQWest]

Originally Posted by naraht

To me, (as a white male, whose been a rep to an Alpha Phi Omega chapter at an NPHC) the major difference between the NPHC and "traditional" (1980s?) NPC signs is that NPHC signs are mostly "thrown", single hand and often with motion. traditional NPC signs are often static, involve both hands (or in some cases arms) and/or have multiple women making pieces of the sign to "assemble" one sign...

I think that DG has been doing their "gam" salute since maybe the late 50s? ADPi "diamonds" have been around a long time too. GPB crescents and XO x's I think I have seen photos from the late 80s.

I think the finger letters is something that I started seeing more since the late 90s? Does anybody else know when NPC groups started doing this more? I just don't remember when it started.

[ComradesTrue]

I have seen photos of my Theta chapter using the vagina sign dating back to the early 80s, HOWEVER, as someone who was in the chapter in the early 90s I can say with 100% honesty that we had no idea!!! We were simply making a representation of a kite and our badge.

I recently ran into some of my chapter sisters and they were making the same sign when taking a photo together. When I told them the ASL meaning they all got a good laugh and wondered how did we not know?!?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by naraht

To me, (as a white male, whose been a rep to an Alpha Phi Omega chapter at an NPHC) the major difference between the NPHC and "traditional" (1980s?) NPC signs is that NPHC signs are mostly "thrown", single hand and often with motion. traditional NPC signs are often static, involve both hands (or in some cases arms) and/or have multiple women making pieces of the sign to "assemble" one sign...

Sometimes....

Anyway, you meant HBCU in the bolded.

[sigmaceli]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

I am perfectly ok with my sorority's hand sign since it is so painfully simple and celebrates the letter that makes us unique among NPC sororities. But the ones who have ridiculously complicated ones? Yeah, they should stop trying so hard to be cool. Their symbols are interesting and unique and the fact that they can't be mimicked in hand gestures should be celebrated, not used to cause carpal tunnel.

But straying into the ASL question, I have wondered how sorority names are translated for ASL. My nephew goes to RIT, a school with a lot of deaf students. I asked him to find out but, you know, he doesn't care so never got me an answer. Does anyone know if the letters are spelled out, abbreviated, made a single gesture, or what?

Tri Sigma does have a chapter there (Epsilon Psi), and they have a specific gesture that they created for Tri Sigma. They use the sign for "three" and drag it across their chest from their left to their right horizontally, as if they were Sigmas on their chest. It's very, very cool, and my personal favorite gesture for Tri Sigma.

[WhiteRose1912]

Originally Posted by naraht

Everything looks reasonable on there except... Phi Beta Kappa, 3rd down on the right. I would be willing to bet a large amount of money that Phi Beta Kappa (as an honorary) doesn't have a whistle.

Phi Beta Kappa was the forerunner for social fraternities and functioned in much the same way even after it become an honorary. When what we currently consider social fraternities started to get popular, Phi Beta Kappa lost the social aspect.

Here's a book from 1920 where they casually mention that their whistle seems not to have originated from the founders.

A hundred years ago, whistles were useful and adopted by the members as a way of recognizing their sisters from afar. Today, the campus culture is photography-heavy, and sorority women want a way to clearly identify their affiliation in a photograph. Photos were rarely going to be seen out of context a few decades ago, so affiliation would be clear when looking at a photo in a yearbook with an appropriate caption, or sifting through scrapbooks back at the house. That's not the case today.

All this to say that I like the hand signs. They're harmless and a way for sorority women to enthusiastically represent their organization even when they're not in their letters. I can't understand why anyone would have a problem with them other than "we didn't do it and I don't get it so it makes me cranky". If national organizations don't like the signs their women are using, then guide them toward something appropriate. (No mouth-phis, please.)

[nyapbp]

Lane swerve alert (and apologies)

Whistles were popular when they served a communication tool. I recall reading that they were a way for members to find each other in a crowd. Listening for the whistle could get you in the direction of friends. Nowadays, the cell phone serves the same purpose. Text the sister/brother to find out where she/he is. There is even an app for that called "find a friend."

[naraht]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

I am perfectly ok with my sorority's hand sign since it is so painfully simple and celebrates the letter that makes us unique among NPC sororities. But the ones who have ridiculously complicated ones? Yeah, they should stop trying so hard to be cool. Their symbols are interesting and unique and the fact that they can't be mimicked in hand gestures should be celebrated, not used to cause carpal tunnel.

But straying into the ASL question, I have wondered how sorority names are translated for ASL. My nephew goes to RIT, a school with a lot of deaf students. I asked him to find out but, you know, he doesn't care so never got me an answer. Does anyone know if the letters are spelled out, abbreviated, made a single gesture, or what?

There is a Greek Sign Language which has fingerspelling signs for the Greek Alphabet the same way that American Sign Language has for the English Alphabet. See http://myweb.ttu.edu/carsteph/GreekManualAlphabet.jpg , but I've *never* seen these signs used by Greek Letter Organizations.

My fraternity in signing our toast song uses the following sign. The Boy Scout sign is also our handsign, it starts out "on the square" (upper arm horizontal, lower arm up), then is folded over the heart and then extended palm up. We'd never try using it with a group without explaining it first, but in casual conversation in ASL, they'd probably just abbreviate it to APO.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Sometimes....

Anyway, you meant HBCU in the bolded.

Given how much the NPHC groups run some campuses, that may be more true than most of us would like..., but yes, I meant HBCU.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by WhiteRose1912

Here's a book from 1920 where they casually mention that their whistle seems not to have originated from the founders.

I read that passage completely differently, the list seems to be "Here are things that all modern social fraternities do: Grip, colors, motto in Greek, oath, constitution, etc. , etc. and they were all made by the original members of Phi Beta Kappa" The *one* thing that modern social fraternities do that the founders of Phi Beta Kappa didn't come up with was the Whistle.

[WhiteRose1912]

Originally Posted by naraht

I read that passage completely differently, the list seems to be "Here are things that all modern social fraternities do: Grip, colors, motto in Greek, oath, constitution, etc. , etc. and they were all made by the original members of Phi Beta Kappa" The *one* thing that modern social fraternities do that the founders of Phi Beta Kappa didn't come up with was the Whistle.

If they didn't have a whistle at all, why would they use "seems" not to have been thought up by them rather than just... clearly wasn't?

[Alpha O]

I quite like our hand sign and what it represents. It was fun to pose in photos with it when I was in college. I hope it sticks around. I don't even mind that two other organizations have very similar/pretty much the same hand sign. I also don't have a problem with the panda ears and the new sheaf of wheat one I've seen on social media. As long as members are having fun and it's not offensive, I don't see the harm.

Originally Posted by AOIILisa

ETA... some of those fraternity whistles look really complex, and I can read music. I wonder if anyone does those anymore?

I agree, some of the whistles do look complex! Apparently we have one, but I don't know it.

[TPA85]

Originally Posted by WhiteRose1912

All this to say that I like the hand signs. They're harmless and a way for sorority women to enthusiastically represent their organization even when they're not in their letters. I can't understand why anyone would have a problem with them other than "we didn't do it and I don't get it so it makes me cranky". If national organizations don't like the signs their women are using, then guide them toward something appropriate. (No mouth-phis, please.)

Sometimes I wonder if our brains are connected.

[WhiteRose1912]

Originally Posted by TPA85

Sometimes I wonder if our brains are connected.

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by naraht

There is a Greek Sign Language which has fingerspelling signs for the Greek Alphabet the same way that American Sign Language has for the English Alphabet. See http://myweb.ttu.edu/carsteph/GreekManualAlphabet.jpg , but I've *never* seen these signs used by Greek Letter Organizations.

My fraternity in signing our toast song uses the following sign. The Boy Scout sign is also our handsign, it starts out "on the square" (upper arm horizontal, lower arm up), then is folded over the heart and then extended palm up. We'd never try using it with a group without explaining it first, but in casual conversation in ASL, they'd probably just abbreviate it to APO.

I'm not loving the sign for "Kappa." "Delta" is okay, but "Kappa" looks like you're flipping someone the bird!

[naraht]

Originally Posted by KDCat

I'm not loving the sign for "Kappa." "Delta" is okay, but "Kappa" looks like you're flipping someone the bird!

Kappa and Delta are actually identical to the ASL signs for K and D. For the Kappa/K, it is the index finger that is going up and the middle finger that is going out.