Biggest Rush Mistakes at any institution

[skylark]

I hope my vote is counted on the offensive side in SWTX's poll.

I totally agree with the above explanation of why: it equates women with sexual objects as their only worth. If you don't think it is offensive, then try to imagine calling your mother (or grandmother) a "sororstitute" to her face and imagine her reaction.

And I think racial slurs are very comparable because many people who are racial minorities will use the term as slang, but it doesn't make the word less loaded.

I promise to judge every person on this board who uses the term "sororstitute" so don't feel picked on, Phi Gam.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by skylark

I hope my vote is counted on the offensive side in SWTX's poll.

I totally agree with the above explanation of why: it equates women with sexual objects as their only worth. If you don't think it is offensive, then try to imagine calling your mother (or grandmother) a "sororstitute" to her face and imagine her reaction.

And I think racial slurs are very comparable because many people who are racial minorities will use the term as slang, but it doesn't make the word less loaded.

I promise to judge every person on this board who uses the term "sororstitute" so don't feel picked on, Phi Gam.

Of course I think you ought to judge anyone you want to judge and be offended by anything that offends you. But based on the number of my former students who have used the term in my presence and their varying attitudes about women, I don't think it's going to be a valid and reliable indicator that a person who uses the term hates or wants to abuse women.

Personally, I don't think a derogatory word based on a bad stereotype of a small subsection of a group, like "sorostitute," is ever going to equate to a racial slur that denigrates a whole group, but to each her own, I suppose.

ETA: if you said it to my mother, she would just think you were kind of an idiot, but she wouldn't see it as a reflection on her or assume than you showed a disregard for anyone other than sorority women. Showing disregard for sorority women is a problem if you are one AND you think the person using the term is implying something about your character, rather than making fun of the stereotype.

I don't think you should ever talk about anyone's mother or grandmother during fraternity rush. It would be a mistake.

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Of course I think you ought to judge anyone you want to judge and be offended by anything that offends you. But based on the number of my former students who have used the term in my presence and their varying attitudes about women, I don't think it's going to be a valid and reliable indicator that a person who uses the term hates or wants to abuse women.

That is all I ever wanted to say.

Personally, I don't think a derogatory word based on a bad stereotype of a small subsection of a group, like "sorostitute," is ever going to equate to a racial slur that denigrates a whole group, but to each her own, I suppose.

ETA: if you said it to my mother, she would just think you were kind of an idiot, but she wouldn't see it as a reflection on her or assume than you showed a disregard for anyone other than sorority women. Showing disregard for sorority women is a problem if you are one AND you think the person using the term is implying something about your character, rather than making fun of the stereotype.

Would you recommend that a woman going through sorority recruitment use "sorostitute"? Even if she was trying to make fun or light of the stereotype? Most - if not all - of the ladies I have the pleasure of of being acquainted with, would find it's use offense. As do the gentlemen. It is crass and common. Which is why if a man wants a bid to a fraternity, he should never use it.

To be clear, I am directing this toward fraternity rush. Even an active - who might use the term "in private" or with his friends - may find it offense when someone he does not know feels free to use it around him. This is similar to profanity. So if he wants a bid, he needs to be certain he does not offend any one member. Remember that in some chapters/fraternities it may only take one no vote to keep someone from receiving a bid.

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

I don't think you should ever talk about anyone's mother or grandmother during fraternity rush. It would be a mistake.

I wanted to address this separately. I don't think there is anything wrong with discussing your Mother or Grandmother as long as the context is appropeate. A simple example may be "My Mother is an XYZ." when asked if anyone in your family belongs to a GLO. How a gentleman shows respect to women - and especially to his kin - is something that a lot of fraternities want to know. Especially before they consider extending him a bid. (Been there, heard it discussed.)

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by TSteven

Would you recommend that a woman going through sorority recruitment use "sorostitute"? Even if she was trying to make fun or light of the stereotype? Most - if not all - of the ladies I have the pleasure of of being acquainted with, would find it's use offense. As do the gentlemen. It is crass and common. Which is why if a man wants a bid to a fraternity, he should never use it.

To be clear, I am directing this toward fraternity rush. Even an active - who might use the term "in private" or with his friends - may find it offense when someone he does not know feels free to use it around him. This is similar to profanity. So if he wants a bid, he needs to be certain he does not offend any one member. Remember that in some chapters/fraternities it may only take one no vote to keep someone from receiving a bid.



I wanted to address this separately. I don't think there is anything wrong with discussing your Mother or Grandmother as long as the context is appropeate. A simple example may be "My Mother is an XYZ." when asked if anyone in your family belongs to a GLO. How a gentleman shows respect to women - and especially to his kin - is something that a lot of fraternities want to know. Especially before they consider extending him a bid. (Been there, heard it discussed.)

I was kidding about the mother and grandmother comment for the most part; it was just thrown in to pretend I was addressing the topic of the thread. I intended it to be along the lines of someone being dumb enough to say something bad about someone's mother. I think it would be a bit odd to bring up someone's mom or grandmother, but there wouldn't be a reason, if topical, that moms and gmoms are specifically off limits. I agree that most fraternity men want to pledge other men who would treat the female members of their families with great respect.

I wouldn't recommend anyone use the word sorostitute. As I said in my first post, I'm not a fan of the term, and I don't see how it really behooves any member associated with Greek life to perpetuate bad stereotypes, but the kids these days, some of them who bear women no ill will, are using the term quite a bit. If we were on campus to hear the current undergrads, I think we'd spend a lot of time being offended.

I think any person going through rush should be even more cautious than the people who are members of a group although I think they should be careful too. To some degree, I think if a rusher used the term in conversation with a PNM, it might actually be kind of test to see if the PNM believed the stereotype, and it might reflect on her very poorly if she picked the term up and made a joke herself. ETA: I think this would also be true for men going through rush.

EagainTA: if you run a facebook search for "sorostitute" it returns 279 groups (at least mine does). Many of these end up being "Fratdaddies and Sorostitute" groups for individual campuses, and the membership in these groups seems to be primarily, if not exclusively Greek. (I can't really tell since I'm not in their networks to look at their profiles.) It appears to be the case that around half the members are women. I offer this as evidence NOT that the term is okay; simply that it is in current usage with a large number of undergraduates who I don't think are especially self-loathing or misogynistic, but are instead using the term publicly as a joke.

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

I was kidding about the mother and grandmother comment for the most part; it was just thrown in to pretend I was addressing the topic of the thread. I intended it to be along the lines of someone being dumb enough to say something bad about someone's mother. I think it would be a bit odd to bring up someone's mom or grandmother, but there wouldn't be a reason, if topical, that moms and gmoms are specifically off limits. I agree that most fraternity men want to pledge other men who would treat the female members of their families with great respect.

I wouldn't recommend anyone use the word sorostitute. As I said in my first post, I'm not a fan of the term, and I don't see how it really behooves any member associated with Greek life to perpetuate bad stereotypes, but the kids these days, some of them who bear women no ill will, are using the term quite a bit. If we were on campus to hear the current undergrads, I think we'd spend a lot of time being offended.

I think any person going through rush should be even more cautious than the people who are members of a group although I think they should be careful too. To some degree, I think if a rusher used the term in conversation with a PNM, it might actually be kind of test to see if the PNM believed the stereotype, and it might reflect on her very poorly if she picked the term up and made a joke herself. ETA: I think this would also be true for men going through rush.

Bingo!

I have seen these "tests" used as a way to "weed out" rushees. As such, some members are actually "happy" when some high school kid comes in and uses this or any other offense term. Similar to what people have been posting here about what not to wear. They pretty much know right then and there that this is one less guy to rush.

This is why many people are an advocate of telling rushees to "be yourself". They want to know about the person they might bid and end up calling brother. As such, is this guy some sort of yahoo who does not know how to act appropriately for the particular college environment? (college environment differs college to college) Frankly, how they act during rush can be an indicator on how they might present themselves out in "real" society. And how they represent the fraternity.

Again, many fraternities require yet another vote prior to initiation. So unless you are desperate for numbers, why bid a guy that you know you are going to black ball later? Better to cut them during rush than spend time trying to change them. Pledge those that are worthy.

[UGAalum94]

For rush, I'm in complete agreement with you.

But I don't think that the general undergraduate usage of the term is a test in that way. I think it might be a case of members of a group using a term to take ownership of it and diminish it's harm, but more than anything, I think they just find it amusing.

It's just like referring to yourself or someone or something you know as being "fratty." You aren't seriously that person, at least I hope not, but it's amusing to pretend to embrace it.

It's kind of a self-parody to distance yourself from the stereotype.

But again, it just goes back to my point that I don't think a listener can accurately deduce based on the use of the word "sorostitute" alone what someone thinks about women. And one should probably be really careful during recruitment for that reason.

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

For rush, I'm in complete agreement with you.

But I don't think that the general undergraduate usage of the term is a test in that way. I think it might be a case of members of a group using a term to take ownership of it and diminish it's harm, but more than anything, I think they just find it amusing.

I'm not sure I understand this. Is this in context to someone rushing? For sake of discussion, I am going to address it as such.

IFC rush is not always formal. It can be one on one, it can be causal, and it can be covert. An incoming freshman might be "watched" (for lack of a better word) over the spring and summer (before being invited to a summer rush event perhaps) to see if he is XYZ material. His running around with a group that might find it amusing to use certain language might be an issue.

It's just like referring to yourself or someone or something you know as being "fratty." You aren't seriously that person, at least I hope not, but it's amusing to pretend to embrace it.

It's kind of a self-parody to distance yourself from the stereotype.

I might have misunderstood this ^^^ but if you are pretending to embrace it, then that (one would hope) is self-parody. As such, you wouldn't try to distance yourself from that stereotype.

Regardless, it might be amusing to some. But why act like a buffoon if you are trying to pledge a fraternity. Unless it is the clown chapter, it makes no sense.

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

But again, it just goes back to my point that I don't think a listener can accurately deduce based on the use of the word "sorostitute" alone what someone thinks about women. And one should probably be really careful during recruitment for that reason.

Perhaps. But how and when someone elects to use it can be an indicator about the person's character.

[PhiGam]

I have yet to meet a girl who is offended by the term "sorostitute." It is a funny, endearing term and they understand that.
Obviously if a girl is able to take care of the financial burden ($2000+ per semester) of being greek then she is never going to have to be a prostitute. Its just a harmless term, another thing that a lot of people will never understand.

[nittanyalum]

Originally Posted by PhiGam

I have yet to meet a girl who is offended by the term "sorostitute." It is a funny, endearing term and they understand that.
Obviously if a girl is able to take care of the financial burden ($2000+ per semester) of being greek then she is never going to have to be a prostitute. Its just a harmless term, another thing that a lot of people will never understand.

Originally Posted by SECdomination

I consider it a harmless term, too. Plenty of people say it and no one actually takes it seriously. I really don't see why some women on here are uptight about it. ( unless someone was actually trying to be rude )

Then those girls are either playing along to curry favor (which is sad) or they haven't been raised well with self-confidence.

You say you respect women, but will you tolerate someone calling your future wife (or mother or sister or daughter) any derivative of "prostitute"?

One day when your daughter comes home from high school and says "Hey, guess what, Daddy, all the boys on the football team call me a cheer-whore, isn't that funny and cute?", will you tell her that yes, sweetie, that's a term of endearment, you should roll with it and let the boys call you that adorable, demeaning term. Or, will you tell her that she is better than that and worth more than that and she shouldn't accept that kind of diminution for someone else's entertainment?

[SWTXBelle]

Co-sign. Just because you haven't been told that some women of your acquaintance find it insulting doesn't mean they don't - they may well hate it but not have the courage to confront you. Especially if they are trying to impress you with how "cool" they are.

As to not understanding why some find it demeaning, might I direct your attention to several previous posts which make it clear why a term equating Greek women with prostitutes is not funny, endearing, or cute? It's not that anyone thinks you are literally saying they are prostitutes - it's the whole "reducing women to sexual objects" thing that is offensive.

eta - To see if it is an age thing, I asked my 18 year old if she would offended by the term - yes, she would. Admittedly, she has been raised by me, so it's perhaps a little skewed, but let me state that she has absolutely no problem in letting me know when she disagrees with me!

Perhaps you really haven't ever come across women who are offended by it. I guess it could happen. But you are now aware that there are indeed educated, competent Greek women who find it to be insulting. Why would you run the risk of inadvertently offending them by continuing to use the term?

And to get back on topic, shouldn't a rushee be careful about saying anything that might be seen as offensive (I leave it to the "frat" men to define what that means)?

[Elephant Walk]

GreekChat gets fairly overbearing with the amount of old people who are determined to be politically correct all the time. It's rather boring when this occurs.

That being said we say "frat brah" alot...if we're mocking a fraternity brother who has acted like a GDI in some way. or "broski"

[catiebug]

old = alumni + money = support for your chapter

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

GreekChat gets fairly overbearing with the amount of old people who are determined to be politically correct all the time. It's rather boring when this occurs.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by TSteven

I'm not sure I understand this. Is this in context to someone rushing? For sake of discussion, I am going to address it as such.

IFC rush is not always formal. It can be one on one, it can be causal, and it can be covert. An incoming freshman might be "watched" (for lack of a better word) over the spring and summer (before being invited to a summer rush event perhaps) to see if he is XYZ material. His running around with a group that might find it amusing to use certain language might be an issue.



I might have misunderstood this ^^^ but if you are pretending to embrace it, then that (one would hope) is self-parody. As such, you wouldn't try to distance yourself from that stereotype.

Regardless, it might be amusing to some. But why act like a buffoon if you are trying to pledge a fraternity. Unless it is the clown chapter, it makes no sense.

Perhaps. But how and when someone elects to use it can be an indicator about the person's character.

In the context of rushing use of the term might be a test. In almost any other situation, I think the terms is just a joke when it's used by Greeks.

The whole currying favor argument that someone else was making to explain why girls use it, to me, kind of falls apart in the face of the number of girls who are using it even when no guys are around.

It's a joke to them too.

I think the term will just die out when the novelty has completely worn off, which may take a while since a new group of kids gets to campus every year.

[SWTXBelle]

"Old"? 43? Jeez. Tough crowd. Let me grab my walker.

Here's the deal -you (or someone else) may mean it as a joke. Others may not receive it as such. It's not about being pc, it's about respect. It's also about context - while your fraternity brother might not take offense to being called a "frat", a Greek from another campus or org might. So the smart, dare I say it, MATURE, thing to do is to NOT use any terms which might be misconstrued in a group which you are not 100% sure shares your sense of "humor". The final analysis of whether a term is offensive or not rests with the "butt" of the joke. However hilarious you find it, if the person who is a member of the group doesn't laugh, too, you've missed the mark.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by SECdomination

I can't tell if this was directed at me, but I'm pretty sure we're on the same page for this post. I can see your point about respect, but I still find it surprising that people even bother being offended by sororstitute.
I'm actually much less offensive in real life. I think.

I doubt you're offensive at all in real life for what it's worth.

And I also doubt that those of us who rush in here to warn, snip, argue, or advise would be nearly as officious in real life either.

It's a message board, so it's what we do here.