The Hazing Tradition

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by bowsandtoes

I could construe the legal definition to say that my professors are hazing me by assigning papers.

Only if you are supposedly in pursuit of the organization known as "students without Fs." Plus, the papers your professors assign you are course requirements and even rites of passage that are well documented, just like the formal requirements and rites of passage for your fraternity are.

It is also a good thing that consent is not a legal defense because that angle has been attempted over and over again throughout the years. So the laws have been updated accordingly.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by bowsandtoes

I really don't see how anything that a person willingly wants to do can be considered hazing.

This is my biggest problem with hazing laws.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

This is my biggest problem with hazing laws.

Hm, so Bob, says go ahead, paddle me, make me overly drink, stuff my mouth with unthinkable things, over do physical workouts then it is alright?

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

Hm, so Bob, says go ahead, paddle me, make me overly drink, stuff my mouth with unthinkable things, over do physical workouts then it is alright?

Absolutely as long as he wants to join the organization.

If he doesn't want to join it, no one's forcing him to.

[DSTCHAOS]

Well, another hazing thread brings us full circle.

As has been said in other threads, these hazing laws are thankfully not about personal opinion or perceptions of "common sense."

Thankfully, the defense of "she/he asked to be paddled to a pulp and to flatline on a hospital bed...she/he REALLY wanted to be in XYZ" doesn't hold up in court.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Well, another hazing thread brings us full circle.

As has been said in other threads, these hazing laws are thankfully not about personal opinion or perceptions of "common sense."

Thankfully, the defense of "she/he asked to be paddled to a pulp and to flatline on a hospital bed...she/he REALLY wanted to be in XYZ" doesn't hold up in court.

I agree. I was also thinking along the lines of:
"Well Officer, they really wanted me to kill them. Really wanted me to drive both drunk and stoned. At over 200 mph through school and hospital zones. At high Noon. On the opposite side of the road. In reverse. And I agreed with him that I should so. So I am free to go, correct?"
And could I please have all of my weapons back? I am in a bit of a rush to get to my Pledge meeting.

[bowsandtoes]

Almost every fraternity related death that I've heard of or read about was the result of abusive drinking. That said, we need have any character-building activities that involve drinking. I really don't think someone is going to 'flat line' from being pushed outside of their comfort level by activities that are comparable to their sports practice in high school.

The very idea that someone can be arrested for allowing you to do something you want to do seems down right fascist. Under the logic of the current hazing laws pledges shouldn't be allowed to compete in intramurals, seeings as the running would put them under physical stress in the name of the fraternity.

[DSTCHAOS]

The majority of the sorority and fraternity related injuries and deaths that I'm talking about have nothing to do with abusive drinking.

But the rest of this is redundant because the other threads have talked the "choice" that hazing victims perceive that they have even in binge drinking incidents. Consent makes sense in theory so a lot of people understand where you are coming from, bowsandtoes, but consent doesn't operate the same way in practice.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by bowsandtoes

The very idea that someone can be arrested for allowing you to do something you want to do seems down right fascist. Under the logic of the current hazing laws pledges shouldn't be allowed to compete in intramurals, seeings as the running would put them under physical stress in the name of the fraternity.

The difference is whether the activity is a requirement to become part of the group. Allowing pledges to sign up to participate in intramurals isn't something that is a requirement for initiation, so it's not hazing. If you tell your pledges that they must do X# of pushups as a condition of membership (or as a condition of not getting yelled at), that is hazing, even if all of the pledges agree to do it.

[Little32]

Interesting, thinking of changing the name and everything? Are they a part of one of the ones that has a deep southern legacy. Would they want to lose that?

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by Little32

Interesting, thinking of changing the name and everything? Are they a part of one of the ones that has a deep southern legacy. Would they want to lose that?

We've discussed this before. Repeatedly. Changing the name wouldn't be too difficult. The chapter I mentioned before also has been changing it's ritual for awhile bit by bit in so that it already does not reflect nationals. It's alumni from the last 30 years don't know the nationals ritual.

...if they were part of nationals with a deep southern legacy...why would it matter? What does nationals have to do with it? Nationals are inconsequential. It's the chapter that matters. Nationals is only good for insurance and for some chapters, even that may become economically unimportant.

[Little32]

[QUOTE=Elephant Walk;1631250]
...if they were part of nationals with a deep southern legacy...why would it matter? What does nationals have to do with it? Nationals are inconsequential. It's the chapter that matters. QUOTE]

That's an interesting perspective. Not so with my org. For us, our national legacy and history is of great significance as our name. We would not readily let that go.

[Elephant Walk]

I realize this.

But what does "national legacy" mean? It's not you. It's not even your chapter. It seems something to not have pride in, as it's not yours.

[Little32]

Are you proud to be an American (assuming that you are American--though it seems that I have read something that you wrote which suggests otherwise, at least I think that was you); or are you proud to be insert your state here. Would being a insert the name of your state here even mean the same thing outside of the context of an American nation.

Similiarly, would your chapter be what it is without the national organization? My chapter would not. We would not exist without the initiative of the national body to expand, and the national body would not have existed without the vision of our founders.

Everything our chapter does contributes to the national legacy along with the efforts of every other chapter; conversely, the national body shapes in many ways the goals of the chapter. We are all different, but we are all so much more the same, which is why every woman who pledges AKA is my soror, not just the ones who come into the organization via my chapter.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by Little32

Are you proud to be an American (assuming that you are American--though it seems that I have read something that you wrote which suggests otherwise, at least I think that was you); or are you proud to be insert your state here. Would being a insert the name of your state here even mean the same thing outside of the context of an American nation.

Similiarly, would your chapter be what it is without the national organization? My chapter would not. We would not exist without the initiative of the national body to expand, and the national body would not have existed without the vision of our founders.

Everything our chapter does contributes to the national legacy along with the efforts of every other chapter; conversely, the national body shapes in many ways the goals of the chapter. We are all different, but we are all so much more the same, which is why every woman who pledges AKA is my soror, not just the ones who come into the organization via my chapter.

Say that!

Our sororities supercede all chapters and individuals but yet they are "ours."