"Marriage is for White People" (Today on Michael Baisden)

[BlueReign]

Originally posted by AKA_Monet

The other issue is more African American men have a rap sheet that African American women, especially highly educated ones do not want to deal with... Generally, men with felony convictions lose too many "rights"--they cannot apply for certain jobs, they cannot get loans, they cannot go to school, they cannot vote, etc. and so on and so forth. Who would want to deal with that, drama? And it is so easy to arrest a brotha these days for just about anything, which is sad because it is crazy...

It is a matter of degree, I think. What can we tolerate and deal with at this time? Then how much are we willing to walk into a situation with our eyes wide open, knowingly going into a something that might be a hornet's nest...

Excellent points in this thread. I meant to read that article earlier this week because of the title. I am one of those sisters that married into that "hornet's nest" and I would NEVER do it again. Because I was raised with both parents, my mission was to NOT be like my mother and be dependent on my husband...so I did not marry to be taken care of. Even though the love was there, love don't pay nobody's bills! I am still cleaning up mess from 15 years ago that damaged my credit, etc.

As a single lady now, I can definitely agree with Exquisite about the "double standard" dating that goes on. I have heard that statement also in regards to friends having casual sex and that makes the woman a whore. So maybe if we single ladies just close the shop, dry season or not, we could find ourselves more "marriage material". I remember my dad telling me the old statement about buying the cow and the milk being free..

Well, then again maybe not. I like to have sex way too much to stop. This is a new day. I think as a whole, men need to change their ways of thinking.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by BlueReign
Because I was raised with both parents, my mission was to NOT be like my mother and be dependent on my husband...so I did not marry to be taken care of. Even though the love was there, love don't pay nobody's bills!

Back in the day, that is what women thought they should do. Some women today still think that way--a MAN outta buy you this, that and the other... Well, I always said, that if I EVA find a man willing to do ALL that for me and was NOT A PIMP, then I'd be a barefooted, pregnant old lady in a shoe with too many kids and not knowing what to do...

I think it is fairy tale logic to really imagine that anyone will take care of anyone without strings attached...

Originally posted by BlueReign
So maybe if we single ladies just close the shop, dry season or not, we could find ourselves more "marriage material". I remember my dad telling me the old statement about buying the cow and the milk being free..

Well, then again maybe not. I like to have sex way too much to stop. This is a new day. I think as a whole, men need to change their ways of thinking.

The other issue is there are not that many brothas out there--sheer population overall. Like isn't it 4:1 sistahs:brothas or more? Then on top of that finding a brotha that is quasi-sane, somewhat attactive, willingly and available and doesn't have any alternative habits or lifestyles? Essentially being HIV-free...

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by tld221
EVERY black marriage i've known in life has ended in divorce:

long story short, i dont know... but i, too, am of the persuasion of no marriage (if you couldnt tell).

I am with others. My parents will be 43 years tomorrow. And my dad--well let's just say my being in his life was payback for all the little crippa-crap he use to do to women back in the day when he was young... You know--when the little boys tell you some bullisht, when I was a teenager, he'd tell me all the stuff that was said and I didn't believe him, till I found out he did it, too when he was young... Then he'd get pissed off with ME when I fell for the gank move by some fool because he saw it from a mile away... He still has a few issues with my husband... But he knows that my husband is a goof-ball nerd that's really smart, who he might see as sneaky...

Whether our marriage will last, I hope so. I know I didn't walk into it with the thought of failure. I walked into it that I would do everything and anything that it would take for it to succeed... I know I can only be responsible for myself and my actions, I cannot control him or his actions, but I do have that expectation. Besides, I hoped that I married someone with 1 personality and high "moral" character--so if something were to happen out of nowhere that he did, because I know I'm not trying to do anything--I have constant past reminders--then, it would be that he has a serious clinical mental illness that requires professional help...

Also, I think that most folks come with these preconceived notions of marriage--I know I did--that just have to either pan out in the marriage or have a real introspective look into oneself about the reasons for those kinds of expectations... Meaning, should the wife work after the baby or should you have children at all, etc...

You have got to know who YOU are before you marry and hopefully before you have kids.

Somehow on a whole, our young people are skipping steps or missing the big picture and that instant gratification thing...

[mulattogyrl]

Originally posted by AKA_Monet
The other issue is more African American men have a rap sheet that African American women, especially highly educated ones do not want to deal with... Generally, men with felony convictions lose too many "rights"--they cannot apply for certain jobs, they cannot get loans, they cannot go to school, they cannot vote, etc. and so on and so forth. Who would want to deal with that, drama? And it is so easy to arrest a brotha these days for just about anything, which is sad because it is crazy...

I agree, highly educated African American women don't want to deal with this. It's a lot of sacrifice and a lot to deal with, not only with the man, but with the man's family, who may be very different than what you're used to dealing with.

Some women do it though.

[Angel11E01]

And what about building with folks? That's what our parents used to do. I know I am nowhere near my realized potential, neither is my honey. But .... we support each other in our endeavors.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by Angel11E01
And what about building with folks? That's what our parents used to do. I know I am nowhere near my realized potential, neither is my honey. But .... we support each other in our endeavors.

Well I think it is hard for some people when they have had to go it alone for so long... It is a matter of trust, delegating and cooperation.

And these days, depending on where you live and how you want to live, it is hard for a young couple to start out to make a family. Back in the day, couples could easily purchase a starter home, afford the mortgage, etc. But nowadays, couples would be lucky to live in a pumpkin shell.

If anything, I do highly recommend seeing a bonafide financial planner with the formation of a pre-nuptual or partnership agreement. Then, I would request all my guests to give me money rather than gifts to go toward the mortgage downpayment.

The issue is setting realistic goals together and separately at the same time.

[Bajan_Delta]

Well my thoughts on this is really that the state of marriage in America is a full on mess. 52 percent of those couples that get married end up getting divorced. I believe that I said something similar in a post on the Omega Psi Phi message board but my thoughts are still the same, marriage does not mean forever. My mother was with her current husband 16 years before they got married. Actually I was maid of honour. To date they have been together pushing 25 years. In the Caribbean many of my friends were raised in two parent households, though those 2 parents were not married. Today sadly marriage doesn't guarantee committment.

I think that the decline of marriage rates and the rise of divorce rates has been influenced by the change in women's roles since the 1950's. Then, us women "knew our place", we took care of the homes while the men went out and brought home that green. However today we women are "allowed" to work and are not dependent on a man. People assume that because more people stayed married then that these couples were happy, who the hell knows if they were. Maybe if those women had a choice or other options they may have gotten out too.

Furthermore, the institution of marriage amongst blacks was damaged from the days of slavery, were a husband or children were sold at any given moment. There was no stability then and feeling of extreme caution (to protect our emotions and feelings of vulnerability) has filtered down through many generations. Sorry this was so long but that's just my .13 cents.

[BrnSuga]

I hope I don't offend anyone with my comment however, it's my opinion. I think this topic is by far one of the most interesting topics on this board. In my opinion, less blacks are married and/or having successful marriages because we have unrealistic or too high standards for our mates. We expect for him or her to be dang near perfect. For us women, he needs to look like this, make this much money, drive this, live there, have no kids and the list goes on and on. Most of the same apply for black men. I think whites are more excepting of each other. For example, they think realistically and understand that over time their mate's body and appearance may change due to getting older, health or whatever it may be. Black women are more understanding in this area, but black men need to emerge.

I do agree with some of the other comments regarding the role of the black man in society and its affects on marriage. Also, I agree that because of the black man's role, black women have become a lot more self sufficient because we have had to depend on ourselves more which can intimidate some men.

I am in no way saying that anyone should settle for less. It's just my thought that if we become more realistic with our expectations of our mates and marriage, the state of the BLACK MARRIAGE will become more successful!

Personally, I am happily married to a wonderful man. I honestly feel that when I got fed up with being dogged by pretty boys who drove nice cars who didn't give a rats azz about me, that's when I met MY BLESSING. My husband is wonderful and truly a blessing from GOD but, had I not gone through what I went through in past relationships I wouldn't be able to appreciate what I have now.

[Exquisite5]

Originally posted by BrnSuga


Personally, I am happily married to a wonderful man. I honestly feel that when I got fed up with being dogged by pretty boys who drove nice cars who didn't give a rats azz about me, that's when I met MY BLESSING. My husband is wonderful and truly a blessing from GOD but, had I not gone through what I went through in past relationships I wouldn't be able to appreciate what I have now.

This essentially sums up my situation as well. Except it wasn't boys driving nice cars, it was the guys I grew up with in the MacGregor area of Houston who came from 2 parent, 2 career, 2 sometimes 3 and 4 degreed homes with no want for money who thought they were God's gift because of all of that. When I finally stepped outside of my neat little upper middle class box, I found my loving wonderful husband who is in the military and comes from a military family (something that was completely foreign to me as a descendant of 3 generations of business owners)....and I could not be happier.

I agree, some sistahs do need to open their eyes and their hearts. I was one of them, and I thank God daily that I did.

[Bajan_Delta]

Hey all I just got engaged tonight for my birthday (actually 2 days before.) Let's hope that with alot of hard work, we won't become a statistic.

[BrnSuga]

Originally posted by Exquisite5
This essentially sums up my situation as well. Except it wasn't boys driving nice cars, it was the guys I grew up with in the MacGregor area of Houston who came from 2 parent, 2 career, 2 sometimes 3 and 4 degreed homes with no want for money who thought they were God's gift because of all of that. When I finally stepped outside of my neat little upper middle class box, I found my loving wonderful husband who is in the military and comes from a military family (something that was completely foreign to me as a descendant of 3 generations of business owners)....and I could not be happier.

I agree, some sistahs do need to open their eyes and their hearts. I was one of them, and I thank God daily that I did.

How odd, my husband is a military man as well, 18 years, Air Force. He came from a large family who didn't have much money at all which makes him appreciate everything that he works so hard for. I am an only child so I never really remember struggling as a child. I think my husband and I both compliment each other with our different backgrounds. Exquisite5, it's wonderful to hear of another successful black marriage. I wish you and your husband many happy years of bliss.

@Bajan_Delta, Congratulations on your engagement. It seems that you are going into your marriage with a positive outlook. I think as long and you remember that in any relationship, you will have trials. However, when you make that commitment before GOD, that commitment and your love can conquer any trial that you may have. Keep us posted on the wedding plans.

[Angel11E01]

Originally posted by Bajan_Delta
Hey all I just got engaged tonight for my birthday (actually 2 days before.) Let's hope that with alot of hard work, we won't become a statistic.

Congrats Soror! We can (stress about planning a wedding) together!!

[Lady of Pearl]

Yes there is a backlash in the so called sexual revoloution no one wants to be responsible anymore-why buy the cow when the milk is free-which has eroded the sanctity of marriage. Sadly, premarital sex is the norm and men do not feel the responsibility to be married. More Black women are opting to be alone rather than just settle for any man. So, statistically speaking Black women are not marrying considering the contributing factors such as unemployment, incarceration, and the unwillingness of Black Men to marry.

[Bajan_Delta]

Thank you all for the well wishes and support. Angel I'm sure that can both use the support. I think that we will probably do a long engagement (2 years). Mainly because I want to be able to get married and not owe a bunch of money. I believe that finances can curtail a good marriage. Also we've been together 5 years, what's another 2. We've worked hard to make our relationship work, i will honestly say that this last year has been the happiest and the brokest

Originally posted by Angel11E01
Congrats Soror! We can (stress about planning a wedding) together!!

[Wolfman]

I would recommend anyone interested in this thread reading the chapter on African American marriage and gender relations in the book, Rituals of Blood by Orlando Patterson,who holds a chair in Sociology at Harvard.He lays out the stats and gives his interpretation of this problem. Jaw-dropping!But what interested me was his interpretations.One of his major theses is the concept of the gender gap in sexual attitudes amongst African American men and women.In short, black men tend to be significantly more "liberal" about extrtamarital relations than black women.Similarly,Euro-American women tend to be the most "liberal" in this area amongst the women in the major ethnic groups,while black and latino women are the most "conservative."And he attributes this attitude to the fact that many African American women hold to traditional Christian values, even though there is a small hardcore segment of black women who don't share these values. He lays most of the blame of the problem on black men,who set the bar low for their behaviour,and simnply do what they do because they can do it.The best analogy of this relationship is the one between the Democratic party and black people in general.The alternatives don't seem there,and you'll stick to what you know and are comforable with.One of his observations is that the rate of exogamy (marriage outside of ones ethnic group)amogst African Americans is the lowest amongst all ethnic groups. He see this as a negative thing,but understandable given the racial history of this country.How this is germaine in his argument is that he feels that black men think they have a monopoly on black women and thus take black women for granted and treat them accordingly. He contends that if a sizeable sector of African American women dated and married outside of the group, African American men would take them more serious as potential marriage partners.

In another front he sees a negative dynamic amongst many African women of lower socio-ecomic status:many don't want a "regular" black man,a 9-5, church-going guy,for example, He doesn't fit the masculine stereotype of the "thug" or "bad boy" who appeals to many in this segment of the population.Patterson says that this only perpetuates the pathological social conditions in our communites when these relationships produce children with absentee fathers and all the attendant social problems.It's a horrible cycle in his view.

This book chapter opened my eyes!May God-literally-have mercy on us!