A serious problem.

[ladygreek]

Wow, I like the direction this discussion has taken. Talk about learning something new every day!

And PJ, you and I are ===>HERE<===

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by preciousjeni
Ok - here goes a slight hijack - Most Christians I'm in daily contact with are the most judgmental people I could imagine. When they take classes like the one I took, they can't reconcile their view of what Christianity should be with the truth of what Christianity is. When I look at cultures, where living together before a formal wedding is considered appropriate (even encouraged), I don't see raging sin. The reason is because I know that the commitment is there and I know that the culture has a way of dealing with couples who break that commitment. Difference doesn't mean sin!! /hijack

So one of my colleagues is a Sudanese muslim and since her brother was "getting married" in the Sudan (but he lives in the US), she was trying to explain to me how "weddings and marriages" work in the Sudan including her own...

It is rather interesting how different cultures do things to me. Especially different religions.

What she said to me was that for her "marriage" her father went to the Mosque and there was a ceremony there to "hand his daughter over to her husband"... Incidentally, men and women apparently must be separated or do not go into the Mosque (I am not sure). From what I understand, she said they were married at that time, but from a US standpoint, it looks like an engagement. But they are allowed to live together at that point. And I think that most people plan the wedding ceremony that last for a week in the Sudan...

The differences from other cultures are that another colleague from China basically went to some government office in Beijing, signed some paperwork and the worker say "good luck" and she and her husband were married. But she said a lot of that was changing into either the traditional Chinese weddings or a more westernized version...

But the most interesting wedding I've attended is a Vietnamese wedding and all the dresses the bride changed into... Whoa... I couldn't do that...

I must admit that the government is beginning to look more closely how folks get married--basically to stave off divorce rates and single parent families due to couples not getting married--not due to widowing or other popular issues, i.e. artificial insemination, same-sex couples, etc... Just two people get busy who are not married and over the age of 20 and having children... Go to the "Focus on the Family" website and they can give you the lowdown as to why they think the whole thing is wrong--if you can avoid the crap that gets you angry...

[Honeykiss1974]

Even before I became an active Christian I thought living together was not a wise thing to do. The lack of legal recourse alone was enough to keep me away from it not to mention "getting the milk for free" idea. So while I respect other cultures and their traditions, I do not think we should just through out the "baby with the bathwater" in terms of marriage in the US nor blame the lack of support for co-habitation on Christians.

Maybe its a generational thing for us (because let's face it - this is an age of instant gratification - a mentality of "if you don't like it, go out and get a new one"). You can live together with everyone you date from here until you die, but if you don't have the drive, determination or even wit to understand what a marriage is, much less the amount of WORK it takes to keep it going, you will always find something that the other person is doing and use it as an excuse to not marry him/her. Its like you have 2 people never learn the art of compromise, which is an ESSENTIAL element of making a marriage work.

[preciousjeni]

Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
Even before I became an active Christian I thought living together was not a wise thing to do. The lack of legal recourse alone was enough to keep me away from it not to mention "getting the milk for free" idea. So while I respect other cultures and their traditions, I do not think we should just through out the "baby with the bathwater" in terms of marriage in the US nor blame the lack of support for co-habitation on Christians.

Maybe its a generational thing for us (because let's face it - this is an age of instant gratification - a mentality of "if you don't like it, go out and get a new one"). You can live together with everyone you date from here until you die, but if you don't have the drive, determination or even wit to understand what a marriage is, much less the amount of WORK it takes to keep it going, you will always find something that the other person is doing and use it as an excuse to not marry him/her.

Absolutely. The culture of the U.S. doesn't support co-habitation. We don't take it seriously enough and generally don't consider it a pre-cursor for marriage. I certainly wouldn't advise American Christians to live together!

But, in other cultures, co-habitation is part of the marriage contract. And, I believe that in the U.S. we are quickly losing our understanding of what marriage is to be (and I include Christians here - let's not lie to ourselves, the high divorce rate does not escape "Christian" marriages).

The concept of marriage for millenia - and the concept as it stands across this world - is that marriage is a vocation and a contract. This is even a biblical concept! Marriage is not intended for selfish gain but is a union for the greater good.

It is for reconciliation between families, deals between countries, caring for the family of another. But, despite what too many seem to believe, there is no formula for biblical marriage. "The proper marriage" is not found only in the U.S. or in our view of what a wedding/marriage should be.

Biblical marriage is based on God and a single principle: sacrifice. We are to sacrifice our needs for the needs of the other. But, in doing so, our needs ARE met, because our partner is meeting ours and we are meeting theirs. If a couple is committed to this principle, for life, the method of becoming married is not as much of an issue.

The rate of children out-of-wedlock is a direct result of the instant gratification you're talking about, Honeykiss. We don't understand what love, marriage and family are.

[Honeykiss1974]

I'd have to seriously disagree with you preciousjeni on the statement that bible does not provide a blueprint for marriage because it does, although it comes in direct conflict with today's culture and generational thought process. The bible does tell us the qualities we should look for in a mate, how a marriage should function, its structure and a whole host of things. IMO, the problem is that many people (inclduing those that call themselves Christian) want to pick and choose what parts to follow and what to omit.

Even if in the US, we saw co-habitation as "kosher", I seriously don't think it would matter. If a man wants to leave, he'll leave. If he has no intention of staying with a woman even if she has his child, that fact that co-habitation is ok won't sway him.

Like you stated, the rate of out of wedlock kids comes from a lack of internal emotions (ex. knowledge, self esteem, role model, etc.). We need to seriously address why this "lack" exist and what happened within these last 30 years to cause us to reap this type of outcome.

[AXEAM]

Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
I'd have to seriously disagree with you preciousjeni on the statement that bible does not provide a blueprint for marriage because it does, although it comes in direct conflict with today's culture and generational thought process. The bible does tell us the qualities we should look for in a mate, how a marriage should function, its structure and a whole host of things. IMO, the problem is that many people (inclduing those that call themselves Christian) want to pick and choose what parts to follow and what to omit.

Even if in the US, we saw co-habitation as "kosher", I seriously don't think it would matter. If a man wants to leave, he'll leave. If he has no intention of staying with a woman even if she has his child, that fact that co-habitation is ok won't sway him.

Like you stated, the rate of out of wedlock kids comes from a lack of internal emotions (ex. knowledge, self esteem, role model, etc.). We need to seriously address why this "lack" exist and what happened within these last 30 years to cause us to reap this type of outcome.

I agree that the reasons for the problem needs to be address b/c often times children raised in single parent homes often have more social and emotional issues then those raised in married two parent homes. I don't believe that just shacking up is an answer b/c I don't think this type of arrangement could teach the children the proper values of family and commitment.

[preciousjeni]

Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
I'd have to seriously disagree with you preciousjeni on the statement that bible does not provide a blueprint for marriage because it does, although it comes in direct conflict with today's culture and generational thought process. The bible does tell us the qualities we should look for in a mate, how a marriage should function, its structure and a whole host of things. IMO, the problem is that many people (inclduing those that call themselves Christian) want to pick and choose what parts to follow and what to omit.

See my comment below on what I meant by "formula." The Bible provides the elements of a godly relationship - elements that can be transferred across cultural boundaries. I think the significant issue a conversation like this will run into is agreeing on what the Bible is actually demanding. Some of the passages used to back opinions about marriage come from letters/epistles that were intended to address very specific issues in the churches to which they were written.

Taking an overview of the entire Bible - its view of women, men and marriage - will yield the elements I'm referring to.

I don't disagree with you, though, that people want to pick and choose. It's HARD to be a Christian.

Even if in the US, we saw co-habitation as "kosher", I seriously don't think it would matter. If a man wants to leave, he'll leave. If he has no intention of staying with a woman even if she has his child, that fact that co-habitation is ok won't sway him.

I think we're saying the same thing, though. In cultures where co-habitation is part of the marriage contract, it works. In the U.S., as a culture, we do not do this. Co-habitation is a convenience and a self-gratifying experience. The reason I posted the information about Haiti (and the other culture I mentioned) was to illustrate that the U.S. concept of how one becomes married is not the be-all-end-all of marriage.

In the U.S., we say, you get a legal marriage certificate and use it within a certain number of days to be married by a religious or public service officiant. What I'm saying is that this "formula" works in the U.S., but it won't necessarily work in other cultures.

[AKA_Monet]

The thing is, with that legally binding contract, a marriage license, a husband cannot legally just walk out on his wife (or wife walking out on her husband). We are not discussing emotions here, we are discussing what one can legally do--what is observed by a judge, mediator and lawyers.

More states are giving "Covenent Marriages" licenses. If the marital relationship goes sour, then the couple must work it out with a counselor (pastor) or whomever and prove that they tried. The only way one can get out of the "covenent marriage" if there is something grossly wrong--like domestic violence (on paper-police report), excessive loss of money, abandonment for 2 years, proof of infidelity, or substance abuse--at least that is how the state of Arizona has it written. And the court folks just say that you can have all the "partnership agreements" that you'd like, folks still divorce and the lawyers just make more money...

I really think that for adults and not teenagers, because their thinking and life experiences are limited, just screw up like teenagers. They get drunk for that "sport EFF" and "whoops, I'm pregnant" and I didn't really know the guy...

Then it begs to question, how come someone would have a child with a loser but not want to marry him or her? Isn't that putting the "cart before the horse" thinking?

But most folks think of the "here and now"...

[AXEAM]

Originally posted by AKA_Monet
The thing is, with that legally binding contract, a marriage license, a husband cannot legally just walk out on his wife (or wife walking out on her husband). We are not discussing emotions here, we are discussing what one can legally do--what is observed by a judge, mediator and lawyers.

More states are giving "Covenent Marriages" licenses. If the marital relationship goes sour, then the couple must work it out with a counselor (pastor) or whomever and prove that they tried. The only way one can get out of the "covenent marriage" if there is something grossly wrong--like domestic violence (on paper-police report), excessive loss of money, abandonment for 2 years, proof of infidelity, or substance abuse--at least that is how the state of Arizona has it written. And the court folks just say that you can have all the "partnership agreements" that you'd like, folks still divorce and the lawyers just make more money...

I really think that for adults and not teenagers, because their thinking and life experiences are limited, just screw up like teenagers. They get drunk for that "sport EFF" and "whoops, I'm pregnant" and I didn't really know the guy...





Then it begs to question, how come someone would have a child with a loser but not want to marry him or her? Isn't that putting the "cart before the horse" thinking?

But most folks think of the "here and now"...

Repeat that last sentence again...b/c a lot of folks just don't get it.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by AXEAM
Repeat that last sentence again...b/c a lot of folks just don't get it.

Oh, I think plenty of folks get it... I am beginning to think that folks don't get a dayum about it.

It's like damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Yah tell me not to get pregnant, but then when I do, yah tell me I should be married, but I hate the guy that impregnanted me, then you tell me not to have an abortion, so I decide to have the child because now, I am too old to not be having one, but I'm still unmarried, but I have a good job with benefits...

So on and so forth...

At least that the rationalization that I seen and heard many women go through...

But as far as men, some men are ignorant. Plain and simple. They just don't be thinking about getting women pregnant when they are not married to them. And even if they are, they still don't be thinking. As if "life doesn't really live inside them, so how come I am part of this picture?" concept.

That is what I don't get. As a man, maybe you can explain it to me? But I really don't understand it.

Some women have told me it's the fear of responsibility for another life... Is that true?

[AXEAM]

Well you're correct in the assesment that some men just don't think there won't be any consequences for their actions. I'm always amazed when I hear men complain about baby mamma drama and having to pay huge amounts of child support then turn around and impregnate another woman starting the same vicious cycle of foolishness over again w/ a different woman. I believe this lack of sound judgment stems from having little or no positive male figures in their lives couple that w/ females who are straved for male attention and you have a bad situation.

[AKA_Monet]

So let me break down the arguement so it can make sense to me because in my opinion, you are saying something that may be a "break though" that I have not realized:

Originally posted by AXEAM
Well you're correct in the assesment that some men just don't think there won't be any consequences for their actions. I'm always amazed when I hear men complain about baby mamma drama and having to pay huge amounts of child support

So you know guys, who "pay" child support for their children. My question is how come they do it if that is not what they wanted in the first place? Because the "courts" make them or do they do it because they actually do feel "obligated"? So then what's the complaints? Because they have to pay it? So who told them having children are cheap? Where did that logic come from? I always knew that children are not cheap... Crap for children are not cheap...

I guess my mentality as teen was, unless the little boy was a king, that owned his own country with his face on the money, there was no way I was going to have his baby... Besides, my daddy took better care of me than this foolish little boy... That was my thinking. So no way no how was 30 seconds of lust worth it for a lifetime of regrets... The child I would not regret, but being in that situation at a teen, I would regret... How come my thinking is wrong? What am I missing?

Originally posted by AXEAM
then turn around and impregnate another woman starting the same vicious cycle of foolishness over again w/ a different woman.

So what you are saying is that some men will maintain the fact that they are "allergic" to latex? So how are sexually transmitted infections controlled? Aren't they concerned about contracting STI's or HIV--besides impregnanting a woman?

Are their self-esteems that low that throwing seeds out are that important to them?

I really am unclear on this concept?

Originally posted by AXEAM
I believe this lack of sound judgment stems from having little or no positive male figures in their lives couple that w/ females who are straved for male attention and you have a bad situation.

Now, I am going to disagree with some of that. Because we've been talking about this lunacy for years. In fact, several great men who have very sound judgement did not have "father figures" in the households. And women who have all the male attention in the world still get pregnant.

I think that people lack responsibility and accountability--like what others are saying here--this instant gratification factor. And it is killing us and alot of other people. Folks do not want to take on the responsibility and definitely do not want to be held accountable. No one wants to be the "bad guy" who made the "bad decision" or "tough call". But we wind up doing it anyway--so we may as well, accept our decision the fact we made a choice, and try to move forward making it better for ourselves...

The issue is with the child... Period...

A person should walk in the door knowing what kind of situation he or she is getting into and then decide if he or she can deal with it.

But most people don't think like that. Most folks act impulsively and probably reactively than proactively.

The consequences of actions--future thinking... How do you see yourself if this situation happenend, etc.

I'd expect silly thinking from kids, but I am amazed to see it from "so called" adults. I guess I rather "jaded" in my thinking.

[AXEAM]

Originally posted by AKA_Monet
So let me break down the arguement so it can make sense to me because in my opinion, you are saying something that may be a "break though" that I have not realized:



So you know guys, who "pay" child support for their children. My question is how come they do it if that is not what they wanted in the first place? Because the "courts" make them or do they do it because they actually do feel "obligated"? So then what's the complaints? Because they have to pay it? So who told them having children are cheap? Where did that logic come from? I always knew that children are not cheap... Crap for children are not cheap...

I guess my mentality as teen was, unless the little boy was a king, that owned his own country with his face on the money, there was no way I was going to have his baby... Besides, my daddy took better care of me than this foolish little boy... That was my thinking. So no way no how was 30 seconds of lust worth it for a lifetime of regrets... The child I would not regret, but being in that situation at a teen, I would regret... How come my thinking is wrong? What am I missing?



So what you are saying is that some men will maintain the fact that they are "allergic" to latex? So how are sexually transmitted infections controlled? Aren't they concerned about contracting STI's or HIV--besides impregnanting a woman?

Are their self-esteems that low that throwing seeds out are that important to them?

I really am unclear on this concept?



Now, I am going to disagree with some of that. Because we've been talking about this lunacy for years. In fact, several great men who have very sound judgement did not have "father figures" in the households. And women who have all the male attention in the world still get pregnant.

I think that people lack responsibility and accountability--like what others are saying here--this instant gratification factor. And it is killing us and alot of other people. Folks do not want to take on the responsibility and definitely do not want to be held accountable. No one wants to be the "bad guy" who made the "bad decision" or "tough call". But we wind up doing it anyway--so we may as well, accept our decision the fact we made a choice, and try to move forward making it better for ourselves...

The issue is with the child... Period...

A person should walk in the door knowing what kind of situation he or she is getting into and then decide if he or she can deal with it.

But most people don't think like that. Most folks act impulsively and probably reactively than proactively.

The consequences of actions--future thinking... How do you see yourself if this situation happenend, etc.

I'd expect silly thinking from kids, but I am amazed to see it from "so called" adults. I guess I rather "jaded" in my thinking.

I believe it's a combination of many of the things that you mentioned.....as for your statement that you would expect that silly thinking from kids not adults...adults have been shooting bad w/ their decision making since 1991 in my opinion...that's seems to be when it all fell apart.

[dafryer]

The men leaving their children should read this scripture and understand they curse themselves by becoming an infidel. Webster says that an infidel has no relationship with God and no belief in God...you cannot survive or thrive in that place. Please check out this scripture and go right down the list of men you know who have left their children and households...they usually do not do well financially, physically, or spiritually.

Please pass this on because most of us simply do not understand the importance of taking care our families.

[AXEAM]

I think the both parties baby mamas and baby daddys should work on their relationships w/God.....besides if something starts out bad (having children out of wedlock) if usually ends up bad (somebody not living up to their end.)