Aggies Take Seahawks' '12th Man' To Court

[saetex]

Originally posted by KSig RC
While there's no general need to defend your opinion, this point is not persuasive - mostly b/c you're not addressing the actual legal points presented (which are not, in fact, opinion-based).

You may very well have consulted the patent/trademark guys at Baker Botts - but if you did, you haven't relayed their advice very well. No one is saying that A&M is implicitly wrong - however, I can envision many scenarios in which the trademark is not allowed with reference to their student section, mostly related to VALIDITY concerns, not registration issues.

Note these also would not preclude the '12th man foundation', which you've propped here - note that trademarks only apply in instances in which 'product confusion' would exist. This means the Seahawks could call their fans the '12th man' and not violate the TM for the Foundation.

yeah, i realize exactly what you are saying about the foundation, that is common knowledge. The information that I received basically said that A&M had the exclusive rights to "The 12th Man." Including advertising, marketing, foundations, etc. etc. Basically, I would guess, A&M has the sole rights to the slogan used in any way shape or form. They have won cases in the past pertaining to the same issues. What more do you people want?

[kddani]

Originally posted by saetex
I got accepted to some of the top law schools in the country, i really don't care what you think, I took the best route to prepare myself for what I wanted to study in post grad. I could give a flying f**k what you think.

If you would have actually read my post, you would have seen that I got other opinions from family members who are all very respected attorneys in high profile law firms.

So where did you get accepted? Where are you going?

That's nice that you have well respected attorneys in your family. However, it doesn't mean that they have any idea of what they're talking about unless they're working on the case. Which you've given no indication that they are

yeah, i realize exactly what you are saying about the foundation, that is common knowledge. The information that I received basically said that A&M had the exclusive rights to "The 12th Man." Including advertising, marketing, foundations, etc. etc. Basically, I would guess, A&M has the sole rights to the slogan used in any way shape or form. They have won cases in the past pertaining to the same issues. What more do you people want?

Again, what you're saying is very very basic information. There are a lot of details and nuances that you don't understand that the rest of us are trying to point out. It's not as simple as "they have a trademark on it". There's a lot more to it.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by saetex
Did I say anything about them being difficult? moron. actually upper level classes were very difficult.....is this your way of trying to be insulting?

I got accepted to some of the top law schools in the country, i really don't care what you think, I took the best route to prepare myself for what I wanted to study in post grad. I could give a flying f**k what you think.

If you would have actually read my post, you would have seen that I got other opinions from family members who are all very respected attorneys in high profile law firms.

Being a criminal defense lawyer means you don't practice trademark law. They're going off of what they learned in law school.

I'm in law school, MORON. Are you?

And I majored in polisci, I KNOW it isn't hard.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by kddani
So where did you get accepted? Where are you going?

That's nice that you have well respected attorneys in your family. However, it doesn't mean that they have any idea of what they're talking about unless they're working on the case. Which you've given no indication that they are





Again, what you're saying is very very basic information. There are a lot of details and nuances that you don't understand that the rest of us are trying to point out. It's not as simple as "they have a trademark on it". There's a lot more to it.

How long have you been a trademark lawyer Dani?

-Rudey

[saetex]

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
Being a criminal defense lawyer means you don't practice trademark law. They're going off of what they learned in law school.

I'm in law school, MORON. Are you?

And I majored in polisci, I KNOW it isn't hard.

Agan, you didn't read my earlier posts well enough. One is a criminal defense attorney, the other two are in business law and have both dealt with trademark issues. I'm glad you know them and what areas they have practiced in.

Why is it such a big deal with you to coment on undergraduate studies, who cares?

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by saetex
Agan, you didn't read my earlier posts well enough. One is a criminal defense attorney, the other two are in business law and have both dealt with trademark issues. I'm glad you know them and what areas they have practiced in.

Why is it such a big deal with you to coment on undergraduate studies, who cares?

Yawn.

[saetex]

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
Yawn.

good response. might want to improve on those reading skills....might help you out in law school......since I know nothing about it. Where do you go may I ask? I am probobly at better

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by saetex
good response. might want to improve on those reading skills....might help you out in law school......since I know nothing about it. Where do you go may I ask? I am probobly at better

You probably are at a better ranked school. I don't care about that because my school is the best school for me, since we teach fun things like manners and ethics. Also, it's free. Also, I'm not a constant disgrace to my letters.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by saetex
Basically, I would guess, A&M has the sole rights to the slogan used in any way shape or form. They have won cases in the past pertaining to the same issues. What more do you people want?

As RC mentioned, an issue in this case is whether "12th Man" has become generic -- like aspirin, cellophane, thermos, brassiere, shredded wheat, and yo-yo.

[Kevin]

My limited understanding is that if the alleged owner of the trade mark doesn't 'vigorously' defend its trademark, it loses it. If it lets obviuos infringers go unchecked for any period of time, it seems to be persuasive in that direction.

While there is no question where the 12th man was invented, A&M has done a horrible job (and it's not like they have no resources to fight this stuff) at protecting its alleged trademark.

My guess is that they lose here.

Or at least the Seahawks might make a sizeable 'donation' and this whole thing could go away

[saetex]

Originally posted by valkyrie
As RC mentioned, an issue in this case is whether "12th Man" has become generic -- like aspirin, cellophane, thermos, brassiere, shredded wheat, and yo-yo.

from what I understood, the term has not become generic, maybe I should have said that earlier. A&M has won several cases concerning the use of the term.

[saetex]

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
You probably are at a better ranked school. I don't care about that because my school is the best school for me, since we teach fun things like manners and ethics. Also, it's free. Also, I'm not a constant disgrace to my letters.

since you know me so well, I would like to know how I am a disgrace to my letters. you know nothing about me, what I do, what positions I have held in my fraternity (which would actually speak volumes about my character and manners), or anything else for that matter. I was raised in a family that stressed manners to the fullest, but I assume you know all about that too.

why did you care about what my major was and the fact that you thought it wasn't difficult? why are you making such a big deal out of this thread in general? the simple fact is, I live in Texas, my family members that are attorneys all practice law in Texas, so they have a better idea about what is going on with the whole situation than any of you period. my dad is very good friends with one of the attorneys, among others, that represents both UT and A&M in legal issues. But you all can continue to make up your own assumptions, fine with me.

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by saetex
from what I understood, the term has not become generic, maybe I should have said that earlier. A&M has won several cases concerning the use of the term.

Yeah . . . boring day at the office, so I actually spent some time researching this (since that's, well, my job). It turns out you're only partially correct on the history involved here -

-According to everything I've found, this is the very first time that A&M has had to file any sort of restraining order or injunction against a team - a cursory glance at the US Federal Courts' PACER listing shows exactly 1 instance of A&M as the plaintiff in a civil suit against ANYONE - in 2006, against the Seattle Seahawks. Note this is an incomplete list, however, it's the only electronic database available from the federal courts.

-According to an A&M official, while they've never sued another team, they've sent letters to the Bears, Bills, and the Miller Brewing Company asking them to stop and threatening legal action - the teams stopped on their own (cite ).

-Also, A&M first filed the TM in 1990 (and renewed in 1996) - their claim is that the trademark should belong to them based on common law. Trademarks are indeed protected, even when not filed or registered, by common law; this is an issue b/c the Seahawks have been using the term since the mid-80s, to refer to crowds at the Kingdome.

OK - so what's my point? It's simple - there is actually zero review available on whether or not A&M's trademark has proper upkeep or is valid, and they have actually never won any court cases (that I can find) regarding this trademark. That makes concerns over generic status not only valid, but I would say pretty credible, considering the 20+ years of someone else using the mark (and multiple instances of use in other locations).

But luckily, it doesn't matter what you or I understand, as these concerns would all be determined by an actual finder of fact (in this case, a jury), or by an out-of-court settlement . . . although it looks like the 'Hawks want to rumble on this one. I would imagine it's been profitable enough for both parties that the court battle may be worth it . . .

ETA: My real point here is that this is a VERY interesting case, on many levels - considerably more interesting than most p/tm work you'll find. I kind of hope it doesn't settle, as I'd love to see it play out.

[Lindz928]

I personally don't think the term has become generic.... I went to A&M, and had never heard of any other school/team using it before now.

I realize that doesn't mean that it hasn't happened... but I don't think it has become a generic term.

Saetex, one thing to understand first and foremost about gc is that there are certain posters who will latch onto anyone and go after them for no good reason other than to amuse themselves. My general opinion is that it's best to just drop it and wait for them to get bored. (and OUCH to the "I hate A&M" comment! Haha. )

[Lindz928]

FYI: this is the information I found on the Tweltfh Man at A&M

http://aggietraditions.tamu.edu/12thman.shtml

"The tradition of the Twelfth Man was born on the second of January 1922, when an underdog Aggie team was playing Centre College, then the nation's top ranked team. As the hard fought game wore on, and the Aggies dug deeply into their limited reserves, Coach Dana X. Bible remembered a squad man who was not in uniform. He had been up in the press box helping reporters identify players. His name was E. King Gill, and was a former football player who was only playing basketball. Gill was called from the stands, suited up, and stood ready throughout the rest of the game, which A&M finally won 22-14. When the game ended, E. King Gill was the only man left standing on the sidelines for the Aggies. Gill later said, "I wish I could say that I went in and ran for the winning touchdown, but I did not. I simply stood by in case my team needed me.".................. This tradition took on a new look in the 1980's when Coach Jackie Sherrill started the 12th Man Kick-Off Team composed of regular students through open tryouts. This 12th Man team performed very well and held opponents to one of the lowest yards per return averages in the league. Later, Head Coach R.C. Slocum changed the team to allow only one representative of the 12th Man on the kick off team. The 12th Man tradition also took musical form. The 12th Man sings this song after each game in which the Aggies are outscored."

Seattle may have been using it since the 1980s... But this started in 1922. That's a hell of a lot longer.

The thing that bothers me most about this is that people are using it as another reason to talk shit about my school.... And I find that insulting.