How strict is your pledge ed programs...?

[ZZ-kai-]

How can an alcohol-free pledge period be hazing? Please explain...

Originally posted by valkyrie
So if you know about it in advance, it's not hazing? That's the first time I've heard that.

[ZZ-kai-]

Now that I have been thinking about this, and comparing some of you to that chain of people in PCU singing "this penis party's got to go, hey-hey, ho-ho" and complaining about the 'meat tossers', I have a few more questions for you.

*Is requiring a pledge to read your lore, and maybe even test on it, hazing?
*Is requiring a pledge to be in shirt/tie or an all white dress/shoes for an event, hazing?
*Is requiring a pledge to spend XXX hours at your house each week, hazing?
*Is requiring a pledge to spend XXX hours at the library each week, hazing?
*Is requiring a pledge to have XXX hours of philanthropy during their pledge period, hazing?
*Is requiring a pledge to meet or exceed X.XX GPA in order to be initated, hazing?
*Is requiring a pledge to wear a pledge-pin, hazing?

Every one of your orgs. has one or more of those requirements, or something similar. Each of those requirements were openly discussed as requirements to your pledge. They knew these requirements BEFORE they pledged your house.

How can any of preach 'hazing', when all of your orgs. have pre-set rules, such as above? Then, if you DO believe those are hazing, what are you doing (to your own org.) to stop this?

If all of our orgs. had open-door invitations to anyone and everyone, with NO requirements, then we'd all be Alpha Beta Gamma's, because we'd all be in the same group.

I'm sure there is a tree to hug somewhere, or a war to protest or some safe-haven land in Alaska that needs complaining about - why stop with hazing?

[CarolinaCutie]

In my organization, none of the pledges are required to do anything the initiated members aren't doing as well.

-Ritual dress? All members.
-Study hours? All members.
-Philanthropy hours? All members.
-Required GPA? All members.
-Meeting attendance? All members.

The Phis do learn information about our organization at their weekly meeting, but as of now, we do not test them on this material.

What the majority of posters in this thread are intimating is that if EVERYONE is not allowed to drink during the pledge period, that's one thing. But dictating what pledges may or may not do outside of official fraternity functions and not setting forth those same stipulations for the general membership IS hazing.

[a.e.B.O.T.]

how is it hazing if it is not endangering the physical health of an individual, causing mental distress, or cause the pledge to experience humiliation

[CarolinaCutie]

Originally posted by a.e.B.O.T.
how is it hazing if it is not endangering the physical health of an individual, causing mental distress, or cause the pledge to experience humiliation

Our organizations are supposed to enrich our lives, not limit them or control them in any way. How is it fair or right for underage brothers to be boozing it up on Saturday night while their of-age pledges don't drink? Unless I'm violating our code of standards, Phi Mu is not the boss of me in any way. What I do in my free time is my business, whether I'm a pledge or not.

[a.e.B.O.T.]

Originally posted by CarolinaCutie
Unless I'm violating our code of standards, Phi Mu is not the boss of me in any way. What I do in my free time is my business, whether I'm a pledge or not.

they are not your boss, but, your always a phi mu... whether your with or with out your chapter... whether your in your 'free time' or not... i dont know your ritual, but you committed yourself to live by the standards of your organization in your chapter meeting or out on your own

[CarolinaCutie]

Originally posted by CarolinaCutie
Our organizations are supposed to enrich our lives, not limit them or control them in any way. How is it fair or right for underage brothers to be boozing it up on Saturday night while their of-age pledges don't drink? Unless I'm violating our code of standards , Phi Mu is not the boss of me in any way. What I do in my free time is my business, whether I'm a pledge or not.

If an alcohol-free pledge period is in your national bylaws, then knock yourself out. But drinking during pledging should NOT be a violation of any sort of standard, and it doesn't make me any less of a Phi Mu to say that I am a free person first.

PS. "you're".

[ZZ-kai-]

Just want to clarify something - this is not a Beta / Phi Mu thing. This is a general Fraternity/Sorority discussion. That being said, what IF the national by-laws require a dry pledge-period? Wouldn't that be hazing too? I mean, thats no different than a chapter imposing those rules on themselves, is it?

[epchick]

Originally posted by a.e.B.O.T.
how is it hazing if it is not endangering the physical health of an individual, causing mental distress, or cause the pledge to experience humiliation

If a pledge said that she couldn't find her pledge pin (thinking she might have dropped it) and then forcing her "pledge sisters" to go outside (mind u it happened in November), and crawl around in the grass in pitch black WITH NO FLASHLIGHTS while its pouring rain, while the sorority sisters sit inside their apartment watching and yelling at the pledges cause that can't find it, would you consider that hazing?

If you have to wear a pledge pin on ur bra strap, and everytime a sister wants to see if you are wearing ur pledge pin, you have to show your bra---in front of any students who pass by....would you consider that hazing?

These situations might not be endangering the physical health of an individual or causing mental distress....maybe even not humiliation. But I DO think it would be considered hazing.

That is the whole thing about the "dry period" being hazing. If you were a pledge going through your process...and the fraternity (or sorority) says "your gonna have a dry period" not to teach you anything about ur group, but just "because"...wouldn't u question it? Especially if the frat brothers/soror sisters said "when we go to the clubs, we better not see you there...or else MAJOR CONSEQUENCES"...then what is right about that?

I guess it is all about someone's interpretation of the word hazing..and what you personally feel is hazing or not.

[CarolinaCutie]

Originally posted by ZZ-kai-
Just want to clarify something - this is not a Beta / Phi Mu thing. This is a general Fraternity/Sorority discussion. That being said, what IF the national by-laws require a dry pledge-period? Wouldn't that be hazing too? I mean, thats no different than a chapter imposing those rules on themselves, is it?

I consider it to be very, very different. Chapters should not be making those sorts of rules and limitations for themselves- in the NPC world at least, organizations are pushing for uniform new member periods where one chapter does not differ greatly from another.

Although I still maintain that negatively differentiating between pledges and initiated members IS included in the generally accepted definition of hazing by national organizations, I do trust any national organization to create their bylaws and pledge programs in a way that covers liability. No chapter is ever accused of hazing for following their national policies... it's when groups of people get their own ideas about what should be happening that we start to have problems.

[a.e.B.O.T.]

Originally posted by epchick
If a pledge said that she couldn't find her pledge pin (thinking she might have dropped it) and then forcing her "pledge sisters" to go outside (mind u it happened in November), and crawl around in the grass in pitch black WITH NO FLASHLIGHTS while its pouring rain, while the sorority sisters sit inside their apartment watching and yelling at the pledges cause that can't find it, would you consider that hazing?

If you have to wear a pledge pin on ur bra strap, and everytime a sister wants to see if you are wearing ur pledge pin, you have to show your bra---in front of any students who pass by

thats a terrible example cause that is degrading to the pledges... showing your bra on request, or having to rumage in the pouring rain is CLEARLY humiliating

[a.e.B.O.T.]

ok, well, i just started this thread to see the general view of chapters across the nation, so thanks for your information. Its really insightful (sp). For record, my chapter does not have a dry period, i was just curious on the national feel of it all. I do think its sort of weird, but I do not think its hazing

[epchick]

Originally posted by a.e.B.O.T.
thats a terrible example cause that is degrading to the pledges... showing your bra on request, or having to rumage in the pouring rain is CLEARLY humiliating

Exactly! But to some people (not me...as i thought it was hazing) this behavior is totally acceptable.

That was my reason for putting those examples. People think that different things constitute hazing. The people that did that to me, didn't think it was hazing.....just like you don't think a "dry period" is hazing. It just depends on the person/sorority/chapter.

[33girl]

Originally posted by epchick
That is the whole thing about the "dry period" being hazing. If you were a pledge going through your process...and the fraternity (or sorority) says "your gonna have a dry period" not to teach you anything about ur group, but just "because"...wouldn't u question it?

Thank you. Yes. Exactly. It kind of depresses me that someone who isn't even Greek yet (but hopefully will be soon ) understands things that initiated members do not.

It cracks me up that I'm being accused of being "PC" when I'm one of the people always bitching about hazing laws having gone too far. I think that all pledges should have to know their history and their fellow brothers or sisters, as well as complete projects on their own and as a group for the benefit of and pertaining ot the GLO. However, when something really is hazing, I will speak out against it, and this is. Forcing pledges only to be alcohol free teaches them NOTHING having to do with their GLO. Therefore, it's hazing.

[saxton216]

Just a thought, but everybody is always and forever going to have a different perception of what hazing is. As far as I'm concerned, if somebody in your respective organization is not comfortable with something and they choose not to do it, fine. If it's a requirement or whatever, fine. Joining an organization is a choice. If you don't want to be what the organization is, fine -- don't join. There's never going to be a universal standard for anything so individual groups have to try and reach a general concensus of their opinions and go by that.