Talkin' white

[equeen]

Originally posted by Shelacious:
...For those who have read "Their Eyes Were Watching God" by (my) Soror Zora Neale Hurston, it often takes a chapter or so to get into the swing of the dialouge because of the writting style. But it's a highly recommended book for those who haven't yet read it.

Most definitely! It's a beautifully written book - I enjoyed the story as much as the language. Of all the novels I read during Senior English in high school, this was by far my favorite. In fact, this was one of the works I analyzed for the senior paper.

The one thing I found interesting is that a lot of characters in the novel had very descriptive names - the one I remember best, of course, is Tea Cake. Does anyone know what significance Hurston meant by those names? I'd be curious to know.

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equeen
A Lioness has her Pride!
@>--;--
Always
Seek
Knowledge
Alpha Sigma Kappa - Women in Technical Studies

[MIDWESTDIVA]

Originally posted by The Original Ape:
Diva,

I didn't know most people write as they speak. I don't. I was taught to write for the reader, and that's what I TRY to do. I'm not a good writer, so I wouldn't know about that. I fine that interesting though.

Original Ape,

Mostly I'm referring to general conversation as we do here in Greekchat. If I were writing an article, or a research paper I would tailor it to the reader. For a good example of what I am talking about, look at AKA2D '91's posts. She uses the expression "Lord have mercy" in her posts a lot because she really talks that way. Not that I have ever spoken to her but you can just tell.

Miss.Mocha,

You are hilarious. Your example of the bum of a brother on the news reminded me of something. Not very long ago there was a report on the local news about a skeleton that had been found in someone's backyard. The news media interviewed the next door neighbor who was as you described, a bum of a brother with a jheri curl and 2 gold teeth in the front of his mouth. As you can probably guess he was not the most articulate brother out there. But to make matters worse, he told the newsreporter that his name was "DJ Fast" and they actually put that in the caption on the screen! I was too through!

[This message has been edited by MIDWESTDIVA (edited December 01, 2000).]

[Miss. Mocha]

Mgdmkk33 (I know that I messed up your screen name, please accept my apologies, I tried to memorize it before I posted.)

Since there is no real and recognized language called "ebonics' what are you and other people who are not of African descent trying to learn? Broken english?

I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm just trying to understand what you mean that people are trying to learn "ebonics". There is no such thing as "ebonics", that word exist only in a prism where the words "generation x" or "Reaganomics" mean something.


MidwestDiva,

I agree with you on a lot of issues (maybe it has something to do with the Midwest connection, but I can't say that I agree with the idea that people write the way they speak.

I have been known to go "scraight to da ghetto" at times with my vocabulary. However, I am a very eloquent speaker and writer when the need presents itself.

I think that sometimes, people are trying to make a point or a joke. Like when people write LAWD HA' MURCY!!!! Maybe the people who can't understand, aren't supposed to be included in the joke .


Just a thought, Miss. Mocha

[mgdzkm433]

Miss. Mocha

I have a hard time explaining myself without sounding like an idiot, so please bear with me. Ok, let me rephrase. Not exactly LEARN ebonics, I realize this is not a language, but speak in ebonics. For example, I've heard the saying "he's trying to be black" when someone was talking about a 'white' boy who was making an effort to speak in this way. This is why I was wondering if there was something more to it than I realized. I just didn't know or understand the history/background, so I wasn't sure why anyone would say something like that. Now that I know that it basically has been passed down through the years from your african-american decendants, I understand where it originated. Which brings me to the thought, do you find it flattering or insulting to hear someone not of African American decent speaking in this way? The original question spoke of the fact that many of you were considered 'trying to be white' when you spoke properly. I don't think this at ALL. Language, in my opinion, varies on where you live. I live in West Virginia. The most souther of the northern states and the most northern of the southern. You can really tell a difference in accent AND dialect. Some of us say Y'all, some don't. It's slang. I wasn't sure if ebonics was just slang created by location. Of course where you live ultimatly determines how you will speak. I might be American, but if I were brought up in Ireland, no doubt would I have an irish accent. SO. . .basically, my thought was--how can someone speak white and black? Ebonics, is it automatically considered to be black? I didn't know, so I thought I would ask questions about it. Basically I'm just curious. Maybe I just think TOO much, but stuff like language, history, religion and culture really fascinate me. . .guess I should have gone into Anthropology. I hope that better explains my direction. Again, I wasn't trying to be offensive, mearly inquisitive.

[MIDWESTDIVA]

Originally posted by Miss. Mocha:
I think that sometimes, people are trying to make a point or a joke. Like when people write LAWD HA' MURCY!!!! Just a thought, Miss. Mocha

That is exactly my point. That's why I said in casual conversation. If I were speaking to you in person, I would speak the way I normally do, proper english. But if the situation required, maybe if I were joking with you, I may need to use "ebonics" in order for the joke to be funny.So I would switch gears and say "Lawd ha' murcy" instead of "Lord have mercy". If you and I are having this same conversation over the internet, and I want you to get the same effect of the joke, then I would need to switch gears in the text message, the same way I do when speaking. Maybe the joke would not come across the same way if I typed Lord Have Mercy as opposed to Lawd Ha' Murcy.

I guess what I am saying is the same things I am typing on this page, I would say to you if you and I were speaking in the real world. And if I were to throw some ebonics into my conversation with you in person, then I would also need to throw ebonics into my posts, to make it match our would be conversation. I don't know if I did a good job explaining myself. But I am sure someone will let me know.

[SoloRHO]

Ya know
I once had a history teacher explain what "ebonics" was. He said it has nothing to do with "slang". Slang is something that varies from region to region. (For example, we here in NY don't say words like "crunk" or "twirk" or "wodie" too often. But people down south use it more often.)
He said ebonics is just improper english. And the term comes from the way our European slave owners spoke. If u think about it. Most of the early settlers of the U.S. were not high class, educated Europeans. They were in fact lower class, lower educated people. So when they spoke, they didnt speak proper english (think of Charles Dickens ). Their slaves learned this improper english from them. This is what ebonics referrs to. Over time, as the lower class europeans became more educated, they began speaking standard English. But the slaves who were denied education, didnt make this advance in language. When blacks finally did start going to school, they learned standard english, but at the same time, had family and friends at home who didnt speak standard english. They learned to use the best of both worlds for dual expression, the same way we do today.
This same teacher said we SHOULD take offense when people refer to "our" slang as ebonics. It's not neccesarily ebonics, just a different way of expressing ourselves.
(Now if you're not talking about just slang, but things like "I be goin to the sto erday afta school cuz I be Hongry!", now thats ebonics. But if you're saying something like "Oh, the party last night was off the heezzee. I jammed all night", that's slang)If this is the case, ANYONE, including young children of ALL races, who doesn't speak proper english should be said to be speaking ebonics.
I don't claim that this explanation is gospel, but has anybody else ever heard this?

SoloRHO
PEACE: Proper Education Always Corrects Error

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by Miss. Mocha:
Original Ape,

Your original post is becoming more and more clear to me.

At first, I really thought you were tripping (for those who don't know, that means that I thought he was way off base), but as I continued to think about some of the post, and some of the questions, your rationale became as clear as a pane of glass to me.

Once we start explaining, and justifying, where does it end?

Thanks for making me step off of my high horse, Boo.


Miss. Mocha!

Much love to ya sista! I'm just glad SOMEBODY out there understood me.

[MIDWESTDIVA]

Hey Original Ape,

I understood you too, after reading your last post about Clarence Thomas.

SoloRho,

You are correct. Slang and ebonics aren't interchangable words. Ebonics really is just improper English. Didn't the name "ebonics" come out of that whole ordeal in California where they were going to start allowing "ebonics" to be acceptable in the classroom?

And I had never heard about the whole poor, uneducated European thing before, but it does make a lot of sense.

[This message has been edited by MIDWESTDIVA (edited December 01, 2000).]

[AKA2D '91]

Originally posted by MIDWESTDIVA:

Original Ape,

Mostly I'm referring to general conversation as we do here in Greekchat. If I were writing an article, or a research paper I would tailor it to the reader. For a good example of what I am talking about, look at AKA2D '91's posts. She uses the expression "Lord have mercy" in her posts a lot because she really talks that way. Not that I have ever spoken to her but you can just tell.
[This message has been edited by MIDWESTDIVA (edited December 01, 2000).]

Excuse me Sisters in Greekdom, but The Spirit brought me over here to see this!

MidwestDiva...
I DO WHAT?

YOU DOGGONE RIGHT, YOU HAVE NEVER SPOKEN TO ME BEFORE...YOU CANNOT TELL ANYTHING! You do NOT know HOW I speak AT ALL! What nerve!

IN SOME of the posts, I WRITE "Lawd", NOT LORD...I do not use HIS name in vain!

Don't use me...wait you DON'T KNOW ME, but my pseudoname AKA2D'91 as a reference for ANY of your posts, okay!

SGR's I would have posted this in a GDI's forum, if there were one!
Excuse me! I'm out!

[MIDWESTDIVA]

I stand corrected. AKA2D '91 says LAWD HAVE mercy, not Lord Have Mercy. I apologize for misquoting you, but not for quoting you. These are all public forums and I can quote whoever I wish.

Am I to believe that Lawd Have Mercy is something you type in your posts because you just like the way the words look on the screen? I suppose you have never ever used that expression in your life. If so, again, I stand corrected.

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"In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: It goes on." ~Robert Frost

[AKA2D '91]

i am going to email my response!

[blu_theatrics]

Hello sisterfirends, I try to come on here as often as possible, and I was really surprised to see the bantering that was going on on this post.

I'm sure that we all can be ladylike and discuss any problems we have on our own. Therefore I deleted a few posts. Not because I felt any one person was right or wrong, but because I felt that this is a dispute better left among the two involved and you can e-mail each other privately, as sisterfriend AKA2D '91 said.
(I'm not looking at the post right now so if I mispelled your name, charge it to my head not to my heart)

I really enjoyed experessing myself in this post and I don't think that it was ment to cause turmoil between anyone, I just wanted to stopp things before they got out of hand.

If anyone has a problem or objection to what I have done, feel free to e-mail me at shennie_97@blackplanet.com


[This message has been edited by blu_theatrics (edited January 10, 2001).]

[DELTABRAT]

WOW!
Hello Ladies of SGRho, SFs and Gentlemen:

I have never been on this board before, but trust me, you finsta be seein' a lot mo' a me.

Anyways:

I feel that a lot of out situations are similar. I remember being told as a young girl that I sounded "white", etc.

I now have a son and everywhere I take him, I hear people say (literally) "Ooh, he talk educated." His Godmother (who is a teacher) chooses to call him ebonically challenged. I do correct his English becaus I believe that it is important for im to understand the way that he is "expected" to speak (i.e. in school/academic/professional settings). The "slang" (NOT ebonics) comes naturally and with time. I don't think it is something that is taught. I live in LA and a major issue was the teaching of ebonics in the Oakland school system.

The issue was actually educating the TEACHERS on ebonics so they could understand their students. WRONG! Teach the students how to communicate in the classroom. However, you can teach children all you want in the class, but when they go home, what's reinforced is what they will become comfortable with.

Also, understand that ebonics is not SLANG. Their Eyes Were Watching God is a good example. There are many numerous writings on this topic. I read one (I can't remember) and it was hard for me to really comprehend.

A lot of people think ebonics is saying things like "Oh, my bad." or " trippin' or dissin'" or things like that but it's not. Letters are excluded that we (being taught by what Europeans believe to be "proper" English) have grown accustomed to seeing. I had a class in undergrad (AFrican American theater)where we had to figure out words like "drysolongso" I hadn't a clue.

ALso, I have to agree with Original Ape in that the way we have been taught in this culture is NOT natural for African Americans. Despite the fact that we have been here for over 400 years and many of us have never and will never see Africa are linked to this natural heritage. Many African cultures and if you know African language you will see that many words do not end with consonants such as the letter "g". Therefore it IS natural for us (as African Americans (African being the key word)) to exclude this letter when speaking quickly. Hence the singin', dancin', eatin' etc.

And yes, we do write the way we speak.
How many times, on this board alone, have I seen someone write should of instead of should have (just an example).

I have seen people write (on this thread alone) "When I talk." or "I talk this way because." The "proper" word would be speak. When I speak...
We are all educated and we use incorrect English (even trying to be correct) all of the time. How about where are the shoes at? Never end a sentence with a proposition. I mean it goes on and on and on. This is not as obvious as "I's be fixin' to go to the sto'" but well, whatever.

It's deep. We are truly linked to our original heritage despite the fact that we have been taught in this society and have very little knowledge of our heritage.

Question:

I recently attended a research symposium where one of the topics was cultural competency. In the health field (and others) it is important to understand clients/patients to be most effective. He gave an example and I want to know who can figure this out.

A woman made a Dr.'s appt. and when the nurse called to remind her of the appointment, her response was "I ain't got the time." SO the nurse hung up. This happened like three or four more times until someone who was Black called, understood what she meant and etc., etc.

Who can tell me what the woman meant when she said "I ain't got the time?"




[This message has been edited by DELTABRAT (edited January 11, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by DELTABRAT (edited January 11, 2001).]

[MIDWESTDIVA]

I would assume that she meant "What time is the appointment?". But even if I thought she meant she didn't have time to come in for her appointment, I wouldn't have hung up on her. I would have at least tried to reschedule it for her.

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"In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: It goes on." ~Robert Frost

[This message has been edited by MIDWESTDIVA (edited January 11, 2001).]

[Ideal08]

Originally posted by DELTABRAT:
I have seen people write (on this thread alone) "When I talk." or "I talk this way because." The "proper" word would be speak. When I speak...

Hello my sistas in Greekdom! And sisterfriends!

Ok, school me, Deltabrat!! I have never heard this one, before. I always thought that you could use the words speak and talk interchangably. That's not the case, huh? I'm telling you, you learn something new everyday. I was a Spanish major, so everytime I have a question about "proper" english, I translate what I'm trying to say into Spanish (is that not a mess??) and then back into English. Since I don't know how to speak improper Spanish (yet I speak "improper" English all day), I'm more sure that the translation back into English will be correct. And now that I think about it, there really isn't a translation for the word "talk," only for "speak" and "say," hablar y decir, respectively. Hmmmm.... makes you wonder. Anywho, Deltabrat, explain to me why you can't use these two words interchangably. Thanks!!