Debates on the New Pope

Originally posted by RACooper
Well the debate over homosexuality has been around philosphically and theologically since the founding of the Church - with opinions and teachings being as varied as they are today... the current debate is pretty much the same, over whether the "condition" of homosexuality is a sin, or whether it is homosexual conduct that is sinful... and then how sinful...

In this case 'Liberal' means a condemnation of homosexual acts as sinful - whereas the 'Conservatives' are inclined to view a homosexual person as sinful no matter their actions.

I think they are talking about the actual act for the most part. The bible calls one man lying with another an abomination but it also calls lustful thoughts, context being heterosexuals, a sin. As far as Conservatives considering all homosexuals sinners, regardless of their actions...well I think it's safe to say that EVERYONE sins, one person's evil thoughts, though never carried out in action are just as bad as a murder. That's a tough one. I guess NO ONE should be allowed to be ministers/priests whatever if we're looking for perfection!

[RACooper]

Originally posted by ADPiZXalum
I think they are talking about the actual act for the most part. The bible calls one man lying with another an abomination but it also calls lustful thoughts, context being heterosexuals, a sin. As far as Conservatives considering all homosexuals sinners, regardless of their actions...well I think it's safe to say that EVERYONE sins, one person's evil thoughts, though never carried out in action are just as bad as a murder. That's a tough one. I guess NO ONE should be allowed to be ministers/priests whatever if we're looking for perfection!

While a segment of the Church leadership did favour the interpretation of the act as sinful - Pope Benedict XVI has made statements that it is not the act, but the "condition" of homosexuality as a grave moral sin - basically he sees homosexuality as a choice, a "intrinsic moral evil", and therefore (following his theologic logic) a choice to pursue a sinful existence.

I also find it disturbing that he laid the blame for the spread or tolerance of homosexuality on feminism....


Oh and some of you in the US may also remember that he advocated the denial of Holy Communion for political figures that adopted a pro-abortion stance... just shy of saying excommunitcation.

[kstar]

Originally posted by RACooper
I'm sorry but how can compulsory membership and service be voluntary?

.

It wasn't compulsory membership and service, it was voluntary

Where are you reading that it was compulsory?

There were many German children that didn't join. It wasn't even compulsory for Party members to have their children join, though it was highly encouraged.

[honeychile]

Originally posted by kstar
.

It wasn't compulsory membership and service, it was voluntary

Where are you reading that it was compulsory?

There were many German children that didn't join. It wasn't even compulsory for Party members to have their children join, though it was highly encouraged.

FWIW, I know two German sisters, one was involved with the female division of the Hitler Youth (Jungen Maidel?) and the other one wasn't. The one who WAS a member had a chance to meet Hitler, but didn't really care. So, the other sister borrowed her uniform, and met Hitler!

The minute they named the pope, I started googling, as I figured things would be very quickly sanitized.

Originally posted by RACooper
While a segment of the Church leadership did favour the interpretation of the act as sinful - Pope Benedict XVI has made statements that it is not the act, but the "condition" of homosexuality as a grave moral sin - basically he sees homosexuality as a choice, a "intrinsic moral evil", and therefore (following his theologic logic) a choice to pursue a sinful existence.

But the condition of EVERY man is a sinful nature. I don't get the reasoning. I guess that's because in my religious background there are no levels of sin, everyone is equally bad in the eyes of God.
Sorry RA, I'm not arguing with you!!! I'm just thinking this through!!

[RACooper]

Originally posted by ADPiZXalum
But the condition of EVERY man is a sinful nature. I don't get the reasoning. I guess that's because in my religious background there are no levels of sin, everyone is equally bad in the eyes of God.
Sorry RA, I'm not arguing with you!!! I'm just thinking this through!!

Well we Catholics have differing levels of sin... perhaps you have heard the terms "mortal or Cardinal sin"?

[RACooper]

Originally posted by kstar
.

It wasn't compulsory membership and service, it was voluntary

Where are you reading that it was compulsory?

There were many German children that didn't join. It wasn't even compulsory for Party members to have their children join, though it was highly encouraged.

Well let see... membership in the Hilter Youth was made mandatory in 1936 (same time Catholic and Protestant denominational schools where abolished) - so when you hit 14 you where required by law to sign-up. So when the Pope turned 14 in 1941... he was legally compelled to join.

Further the Hilter Youth was official assigned to the role of Flak batteries in Jan. of 1943 - this is where the Pope was drafted into the German Army.

Quick history of Hitler Youth
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar...uth/index.html

On December 1, 1936, Hitler decreed "The Law concerning the Hitler Youth" which mandated that all young Germans (excluding Jews) would "be educated physically, intellectually and morally in the spirit of National Socialism" though the Hitler Youth from the age of ten onward. This law also effectively ended the Catholic Youth Organization which had managed to hold for three years amid continual Nazi harrassment.

Parents who prevented their children from joining the Hitler Youth were subject to heavy prison sentences. Membership thus grew to nearly six million. As a result, the organization sprouted into a giant bureaucracy in Berlin and began to acquire the dreariness of a big governmental institution in marked contrast to the dynamic organization it had been in the 1920s and early '30s when members battled daily to bring Hitler to power. The compulsory nature of weekly HJ meetings for everyone led to a gradual decline in morale and discipline.

[citydogisu]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/20/op...rint&position=

For instance, as a cardinal, the new pope inserted himself last year into the political debate over allowing Turkey into the European Union. He was quoted as saying that adding Turkey, a predominantly Muslim nation of 70 million people, would dilute the culture of what he considers a Christian continent and that Turkey should align itself instead with other Muslim nations. At a time when few things are more important than reconciling the Islamic world with the non-Islamic West, it would be extremely disturbing if the pope became an unnecessary wedge. It would also be out of keeping with the heritage of John Paul II - who, for all his doctrinal conservatism, was a man known for his outreach to people of other faiths.

[citydogisu]

From nazi youth to homophobic pope
by Tommi Avicolli Mecca

It's official: The new pope is a former Nazi youth member (he says he
was forced to join) and rabid homophobe (he's unapologetic about that).

Cardinal Joseph Alois Ratzinger, Pope John Paul's Prefect for the
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the church institution that
gave us the Inquisition in Spain, will now lead the religion that
slaughtered millions during the Crusades and the witch burnings and stood
silently by during World War II while the Nazis wiped out Jews, homos,
Gypsies and others.

Ratzinger has been the voice of extreme homophobia and outright
insensitivity towards queers and others for the many years he worked side
by side with John Paul. In the late 80s he declared in a letter to bishops
that homos were "innately evil" and responsible for AIDS. He also attacked
the Marxist-based liberation theology of Latin America, a theology that
inspired catholic nuns and priests to risk their lives in defense of the
poor and the oppressed.

Ratzinger takes over the reins of a church that is suffering from
shrinking congregations and a serious decline in young people eager to join
the priesthood or convent. Its resources are being drained by hundreds of
lawsuits against priests accused of the sexual abuse of children. Instead
of the cardinals electing someone who could heal wounds, and open doors and
let in fresh air, thereby bringing people back into the fold, they stepped
several centuries back into a darker era when the church committed
atrocities as easily as any evil empire.

Ultimately, It could be a good thing.

Ratzinger's continued persecution of homos may finally motivate
Dignity, the gay catholic group, to become militant and take to the pews
with a newfound intolerance for its church's insane hatred of homos and
other sexual outlaws. What a breath of fresh air it would be to hear
Dignity tell it like it is--that the church's anti-gay theology leads to
violence against queers, not to mention self-hatred and suicide in queer
youth. Perhaps Dignity members will perform civil disobedience at catholic
functions, including appearances by San Francisco Archbishop William J.
Levada, another man of the cloth who doesn't believe in queer rights.

Perhaps having a Jerry Falwell type as pope could motivate liberal
catholics to leave the church in droves. If they need religion, they can
join the Quakers. At least then they wouldn't have to support a religion
that bashes queers and opposes safe sex education, contraception, abortion,
and a women's right to reproductive freedom. C'mon, all you catholics who
march against war and support a woman's right to choose, not to mention her
right to have a role in the church. Join the exodus now. Don't be a part of
an institution that has a track record of always being on the wrong side of
human rights struggles everywhere.

Having a fundamentalist for a pope could also drive moderate
catholics to the left. They might suddenly remember that this is the same
church that persecuted Galileo for saying the world was round and kept
Nicholas Copernicus from publishing his theory of the earth revolving
around the sun. They may recall that they, too, have friends, co-workers
and family members who are queer. That they don't hate Jews or think that
women who use contraception are evil. Ratzinger's extremism may turn them off.

In the end Ratzinger may do more to liberalize his own church than
any Marxist priest in Latin America teaching poor people to fight back
against the rich aristocracy that reaps the benefits of their labor.

It might actually move the church out of the dark ages.

Tommi Avicolli Mecca is an ex-catholic southern Italian queer radical
activist, performer and writer who believes, as Marx did, that religion is
an opiate.

[KSigkid]

Originally posted by RACooper


Oh and some of you in the US may also remember that he advocated the denial of Holy Communion for political figures that adopted a pro-abortion stance... just shy of saying excommunitcation.

That was a big part of the coverage here in Boston, since the order seemed directed at John Kerry.

Originally posted by RACooper
Well we Catholics have differing levels of sin... perhaps you have heard the terms "mortal or Cardinal sin"?

Yes I am familiar with the terminology, I went to a Catholic High School. Thanks for some clarification.

[dekeguy]

Anybody read "The Confessions of Saint Augustine"? Seems to me that one can have an exceptionally "active and rather negative" life and then grow and mature into a good and holy person. I think I'll pray that Benedict XVI defends the faith but with a gentle hand in imitation of Christ through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I'll take a wait and see approach as to how much I like his approach, remembering that he is the Pope and I am a Catholic.
Ave Pontifex Maximus, saluto et oro pro te!

[RACooper]

Originally posted by citydogisu
Tommi Avicolli Mecca is an ex-catholic southern Italian queer radical activist, performer and writer who believes, as Marx did, that religion is an opiate.

Hmmm... no bias here

Politically and personally I can understand why JP2 opposed any linking of the Church with the Liberation movement - because of its strong ties to Marxism...

Also whats with the allegations that Benedict XVI or Catholiocs hate Jews?

Next time at least try to post something not so slanted or vitrolic... and also please give us a link to the source...

[GeekyPenguin]

I have a lot to say on this issue and a going to come back to this thread later. What I think is really impressive is that the level of discourse on this thread, with the exception of one poster, has been very rational and well-behaved.

I do have one thing to say on the abuse scandal though - do those of you who criticize the Catholic church for abuse honestly believe your faith is immune from it? A pedophile is a pedophile, whether they have chosen to be celibate or are married with a a family.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
On request from the other thread, I thought I'd move all potentially controversial material here so those who just want to celebrate can do it in the other thread without interruption.

Here's my post from that thread:
Assuming the new pope stays true to his conservative roots, I worry about the route the church is taking. By selecting a conservative pope, the church is essentially sweeping a number of problems (condom use in Africa, the priest shortage, European Catholics becoming less and less religious, etc.) under the rug instead of addressing them. I think we're at the place where the church needs to work with its members (especially European ones) instead of against them, and a conservative pope will be less likely to do that. And in terms of relations with the rest of the world, popes in the near future will probably need to reach out to Muslim leaders the way John Paul II reached out to Jewish leaders.

Hopefully this new pope chose his name for a reason, and he does plan on working towards unification.

Posted this in the other thread, but:

Supposedly (or speculatively), the European problem is one of the reasons that Ratzinger, a German, was chosen. I guess that they thought it will take a European to work on or "fix" that problem.

Geoffrey Wainwright, a Methodist theologian from Duke who has known Ratzinger for years, was on Nightline last night. He said that, from an ecumenical and inter-faith perspective, he was "elated" at the choice of Ratzinger and thought it would be very positive as far as ecumenical and inter-faith relations go. FWIW.