Headscarve issue with a twist

[Rudey]

Originally posted by moe.ron
Except what I just wrote is about Bavaria.

Except I made a comparison to France.

Again, France and Bavaria have the same rule targeting the same people. If they don't target the same people, I'd like to know who else in France has been targetted.

-Rudey

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by Rudey
Except I made a comparison to France.

Again, France and Bavaria have the same rule targeting the same people. If they don't target the same people, I'd like to know who else in France has been targetted.

-Rudey

Excetp Bavaria is not part of FRench. We are talking about Bavaria here. There is another discussion about French ban on overtly religious symbol. I'm sure you can find it.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by moe.ron
Excetp Bavaria is not part of FRench. We are talking about Bavaria here. There is another discussion about French ban on overtly religious symbol. I'm sure you can find it.

Except they are related. It's not a completely different discussion.

-Rudey

[RUgreek]

France banned the headscarves.

Germany banned the headscarves.

Turkey banned the headscarves (yes, even Turkey)...

These are hardly religous symbols and more analogous to a dog pissing on a tree for territorial purposes. They oppress muslim women and treat them as property of muslim men.

However, for the sake of argument, asssuming this is a pure religous symbol and it is discriminating this one group, I would still support a ban on headscarves because it is not being used for religious purposes in school, but rather to provoke and pressure other religious groups. In school, the headscarf is a tool used by extremists and fundamentalists to threaten jewish and catholic groups. Any religious meaning behind wearing the headscarf has been lost or abused by the few bad apples in this orchard.

[_Opi_]

Originally posted by RUgreek


These are hardly religous symbols and more analogous to a dog pissing on a tree for territorial purposes. They oppress muslim women and treat them as property of muslim men.

In school, the headscarf is a tool used by extremists and fundamentalists to threaten jewish and catholic groups.

BTW, can you stop posting ignorant comments about a topic you do not know. Hijab/head scarf is a RELIGIOUS symbol and not every woman who wears the hijab is ARAB and/or OPPRESSED. so you need to get that out of your head. As a muslim WOMAN, your comment offends me greatly. Hijab is a religious mandate for women and a matter of choice. If some woman are oppressed by their men, it is possible. But why is it that in my ENTIRE life ..and all the muslim women that I grew up (and that is quite a lot), I have never met one who hadn't worn the hijab out of CHOICE. A family member just started wearing the Hijab couple of weeks ago because she wanted to become more RELIGIOUS, not CULTURAL. So please take your comment, go to your local mosque/muslim student organization and learn more about the hijab and hear from an AMERICAN-MUSLIM on why they do wear the hijab.



and you compare it to pissin on a tree? if that aint bigotry and a LIE i dont know what is!!


ETA: lol@muslim WOMEN being extremist/fundamentalist and wearing the hijab to scare catholic and jewish kids...BTW, we eat them too (but dont tell anybody)

[Rudey]

OK while you two go back and forth, he didn't say Arab. You are the one that did and now you're capitalizing it too.

-Rudey

Originally posted by _Opi_
BTW, can you stop posting ignorant comments about a topic you do not know. Hijab/head scarf is a RELIGIOUS symbol and not every woman who wears the hijab is ARAB and/or OPPRESSED. so you need to get that out of your head. As a muslim WOMAN, your comment offends me greatly. Hijab is a religious mandate for women and a matter of choice. If some woman are oppressed by their men, it is possible. But why is it that in my ENTIRE life ..and all the muslim women that I grew up (and that is quite a lot), I have never met one who hadn't worn the hijab out of CHOICE. A family member just started wearing the Hijab couple of weeks ago because she wanted to become more RELIGIOUS, not CULTURAL. So please take your comment, go to your local mosque/muslim student organization and learn more about the hijab and hear from an AMERICAN-MUSLIM on why they do wear the hijab.



and you compare it to pissin on a tree? if that aint bigotry and a LIE i dont know what is!!


ETA: lol@muslim WOMEN being extremist/fundamentalist and wearing the hijab to scare catholic and jewish kids...BTW, we eat them too (but dont tell anybody)

[_Opi_]

Rudey,

If he said that about the Judiac religion, he would be called an anti-semite? wouldn't he?

Yet you seem to be defending him..for what reasons I don't know.

Its irrelevant whether he said Arab or not...its about devaluing the traditions of a religion and the women in it.

RUGreek,

BTW, you do know that Mary (or mariam) used to wear a headscarf too....as well as Nuns in the Christian religion...are they wearing it because of culture? hmmm...I'll let you ponder on that..

[Rudey]

Originally posted by _Opi_
Rudey,

If he said that about the Judiac religion, he would be called an anti-semite? wouldn't he?

Yet you seem to be defending him..for what reasons I don't know.

Its irrelevant whether he said Arab or not...its about devaluing the traditions of a religion and the women in it.

RUGreek,

BTW, you do know that Mary (or mariam) used to wear a headscarf too....as well as Nuns in the Christian religion...are they wearing it because of culture? hmmm...I'll let you ponder on that..

Listen I just mentioned the Arab thing. He said nothing about Arabs, you did. You threw that in there. I mentioned that. Let me repeat that I mentioned that you made a mistake and that's what I did. Wait did you get what I did or not yet? I hope you did.

Don't try and pawn off any of your BS on me.

-Rudey

[RUgreek]

Look Opi,

If this discussion is too personal for you to discuss, then don't post really ignorant comments like I don't know what I'm talking about. While I can't say I'm offended (maybe more or less amused), I am a little confused as to whether you have knowledge of the issues here.

Perhaps you'd like to educate me as to what you believe are the real reasons behind the headscarf ban. I know my comments may seem offensive to you, however I never directed them to you so bite me.

Also, the reasons and facts I listed were not completely authored by myself. The BBC and its fine news reporting is where you should direct your anger and frustration. If you feel so strongly about your headscarf, then go over to Europe and protest with your fellow religous friends.

As for not growing up with oppressed muslim women who wear the headscarf, I think you are very lucky and blessed. You obviously live in America and share in the liberties and freedoms of all citizens. This is not the case in all other countries. I'm going to assume you did not grow up in a muslim country, but I may be mistaken. If you didn't grow up there, then that would clearly explain why you haven't witnessed this mistreatment of women.

Finally, your last attempt to edumacate me on Mary (either out of rage or personaly amusement puzzles me a little. Are you trying to say something to me that I didn't know or maybe trying to get under my skin? From the sounds of it you might be trying to imply I'm christian and this would somehow offend me. Well sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not and it doesn't


Yours Truly,


RUgreek

[RUgreek]

Originally posted by RUgreek
These are hardly religous symbols and more analogous to a dog pissing on a tree for territorial purposes. They oppress muslim women and treat them as property of muslim men.

Originally posted by _Opi_
and you compare it to pissin on a tree? if that aint bigotry and a LIE i dont know what is!!

Maybe my message was distorted by the metaphors I used.

A dog pissing on a tree is its way to mark one's territory. The headscarf is used by the fundamentalists to keep women under wraps and hidden from others.

Now, I can see that at first glance (dog and pissing) would imply me being offensive, but I disagree that I was speaking like a bigot towards the muslim population. I had meant to show my distaste towards the oppression of muslim women by relgious fanatics. If any other message was derived from my statements, then feel free to ask for a clarification before jumping to ignorant conclusions...

[_Opi_]

RUGreek,

I understand that you find me being highly offended by your comments amusing. To address you not being the only who authored that muslim women are being oppressed by the headscarf, I am only addressing what YOU said, and not what the BBC or other European publications wrote about. You did not separate muslim women from certain countries that actually do oppress their women by making them wear the hijab (like Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Iran) from other muslim countries like Egypt, Eastern Africa, Malaysia, Indonesia as well as western Africa. That's your bad. You overgeneralised muslim women everywhere with your comment. In case you misunderstand me some more, I did see that you were making an analogy (a fucked up one at that). You went further to insult all muslim brothers by stating that they oppress their women, when in fact, that is incorrect. I will let you do your own research on that. you also said :

In school, the headscarf is a tool used by extremists and fundamentalists to threaten jewish and catholic groups.

again, you generalized and did not make specific WHO you were talking about exactly. I am assuming in European countries, "free" (and I use this word loosely) and democratic countries. You suggest that women are not free-thinking people and insult their intelligence as well as make them out to be the type of people the wear their religious garb to spite others. I find this comment bigotted (feel free to be amused here).

Again, who is oppressing who here? These countries, while liberating those who did not wear the hijab out of choice, are actually OPPRESSING those who do by denying them basic rights to education.

BTW, in all the schools, lectures, conference about Islam that I have attended over the years, I have been taught to respect fellow Christians and Jews, and I have never made a deragatory comments (as you have, even though you think you did not) like you have about either religions. We share more than you would like to believe.

As for not growing up with oppressed muslim women who wear the headscarf, I think you are very lucky and blessed. You obviously live in America and share in the liberties and freedoms of all citizens. This is not the case in all other countries. I'm going to assume you did not grow up in a muslim country, but I may be mistaken. If you didn't grow up there, then that would clearly explain why you haven't witnessed this mistreatment of women.

Hon, I grew up in both worlds..and at least I know the truth. I still would not insult all free practicing muslims out there (and there are many) with comments like all hijabis are oppressed by fanatics. I have a mother who is a hijabi, sisters who are hijabis, friends, and acquantances (from differeny parts of the world) who are all hijabis..and your comment really does make it personally, whether I would like to or not.


I will call you out on your insulting remarks...and you can be amused all you want...


BTW, I did not imply that you were a Christian but instead giving you a comparison to another religion for reference. But that point has been lost on you.


Peace

[_Opi_]

Originally posted by Rudey
Listen I just mentioned the Arab thing. He said nothing about Arabs, you did. You threw that in there. I mentioned that. Let me repeat that I mentioned that you made a mistake and that's what I did. Wait did you get what I did or not yet? I hope you did.

Don't try and pawn off any of your BS on me.

-Rudey

You are trying to pick a fight..and digress from the offensive comments that RUGreek posted...and frankly, it's not working :-)

Nice try though.

[RUgreek]

The only thing amusing me now is that you are looking for an argument rather than a discussion. Nobody here (including myself) was trying to offend you or your people. I don't understand why you are picking a fight, but maybe you've been a victimized recently and looking for a scapegoat. Enough lecturing, the problem now is that you want to twist my words and make them fit your irrational propositions...

Originally posted by _Opi_
You did not separate muslim women from certain countries that actually do oppress their women by making them wear the hijab (like Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Iran) from other muslim countries like Egypt, Eastern Africa, Malaysia, Indonesia as well as western Africa. That's your bad. You overgeneralised muslim women everywhere with your comment.

I think you should use common sense when posting. I was speaking indirectly of the oppressed muslim women. If you couldn't understand that, that is your bad. Nobody else was confused by reading it.

In case you misunderstand me some more, I did see that you were making an analogy (a fucked up one at that). You went further to insult all muslim brothers by stating that they oppress their women, when in fact, that is incorrect.

No, i think you are the one that is incorrect. One, I said extremists and fundamentalists oppress women. That does not mean all. My analogy is straight and to the point. Sorry you fail to see the simplicity of its message, but that goes back to my common sense remark.

you generalized and did not make specific WHO you were talking about exactly. I am assuming in European countries, "free" (and I use this word loosely) and democratic countries. You suggest that women are not free-thinking people and insult their intelligence as well as make them out to be the type of people the wear their religious garb to spite others.

Again, I said extremists and fundamentalists, are you seriously not understanding the specific who in this post? And where have I even suggested let alone said that women are not free-thinking people? Do you read before you type on here?

These countries, while liberating those who did not wear the hijab out of choice, are actually OPPRESSING those who do by denying them basic rights to education.

How does the prevention of wearing a headscarf deny a person the right to education? You yourself say that those who choose not to wear it are being liberated. If that's the case, then the only thing being denied is a religious issue. School should be a place for the free exchange of ideas and thoughts without the intimidation or pressure of any religious group. I think the headscarf ban is trying to balance those interests and not oppress muslim women. I think its important to understand the reasons and justifications behind this new law before attacking it on personal grounds.

BTW, in all the schools, lectures, conference about Islam that I have attended over the years, I have been taught to respect fellow Christians and Jews, and I have never made a deragatory comments (as you have, even though you think you did not) like you have about either religions. We share more than you would like to believe.

I respect that and glad to hear those values are being taught at Islamic-sponsored events. Unfortunately, there is also a large population of islamics that promote the hate and destruction of the fellow christian and jewish cultures. I know you believe I have made here a negative comment about you or your religion. In reality, I've only attacked the people that are giving your religion a bad name and face. I hope someday you will come to understand where I am coming from.

Hon, I grew up in both worlds..and at least I know the truth.

Forgive me if I don't automatically believe you when you imply you grew up in a muslim country. Growing up in both worlds has a fuzzy meaning to it. I asked if you grew up in a muslim country. Some people would say a muslim family or local community counts as a "world." Did you live in one of the middle eastern muslim country's?

BTW, I did not imply that you were a Christian but instead giving you a comparison to another religion for reference. But that point has been lost on you.

If that was the message you wanted me to ponder, you chose the wrong way to bring it out. After running through a post trying to insult me and my opinions the last thing you should expect is that I would switch gears and try to compare this headscarf issue with the fact that nuns wear them too. It's off topic and off point with regards to this discussion. The fact that you find the law against headscarves oppressive is a consequence of its effect on the repressed. Which is better, to repress those that do not want to wear it or force all to wear it against their wishes?

You talked earlier of choice, but you also know that many of these women are being forced to wear the headscarves without a choice. This law gives them the opportunity to attend school without feeling repressed or different.

How would you feel if you were forced to wear one when you did not want to?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by _Opi_
You are trying to pick a fight..and digress from the offensive comments that RUGreek posted...and frankly, it's not working :-)

Nice try though.

No I corrected you because you had trouble reading.

Anyway, back to head scarves: Even if you're not forced to wear it physically, often there can be an emotional hold over you. I would venture to guess that if that emotional hold was lifted, many less women would wear it. Yes many women wear it by choice, but many are physically forced to and many are "pressured" to.

The strangest thing I ever saw with a hijab was in south beach, Florida. I'm on the beach and there are gorgeous topless women near us. I look next to me and I see a Muslim woman. I say to myself, wow how strange because the weather is extremely hot and she's not just wearing a hijab but a full covering of the body. But then there is her husband and son in bathing suit and the husband himself is gazing quite intently at the topless women. That is an example of the emotional hold. The law in America provides freedom for this woman not to wear it, but she's somehow locked into it while her husband gazes at naked women.

Whether or not certain religions and cultures want to dress a certain way is up to them. It is the unofficial hold combined with how it only dictates how women should dress, that bothers me.

-Rudey

[_Opi_]

Originally posted by RUgreek


These are hardly religous symbols and more analogous to a dog pissing on a tree for territorial purposes. They oppress muslim women and treat them as property of muslim men.

I think going back to your previous would help you see why your bigotted comments might offend someone. Here is a fine example of you devaluing the symbolism of the Hijab. Now, reading your other posts..I see that you said that you were only talking about those countries that do oppress their women and muslim men who bla bla bla..but dear, your initial statement does not state that you were talking about a select few. 90% of your following posts were superficialand only attempting to paint me as having a faulty logic, having irrational conclusions and lacking no COMMON SENSE...when in fact, that you are the one who did not make yourself clear and painted yourself as an ignorant bigot.

However, for the sake of argument, asssuming this is a pure religous symbol and it is discriminating this one group, I would still support a ban on headscarves because it is not being used for religious purposes in school, but rather to provoke and pressure other religious groups.

again ignorant comment

In school, the headscarf is a tool used by extremists and fundamentalists to threaten jewish and catholic groups. Any religious meaning behind wearing the headscarf has been lost or abused by the few bad apples in this orchard. [/B]

in school only? you mean that muslim women wear the hijab just to school .....to scare catholic and jewish groups . Really, honestly..you are talking about me being irrational here ...but just have a look at the comments you throw around.




RUGreek, trust, I am quite vocal about women's issues ..especially when it comes to Islam. Your comment would be seen as ignorant, if not derogatory or bigotted by other muslims. You give way too much credit to fundamentalists and Extremist, and play into the fact that it represents such a large portion of our population. I would suggest that you stop reading propoganda and go "edumucate" yourself before you run at the mouth. BTW, there is no such thing as "islamics"..lol..you just bought into another one of those CNN creations. I have not been "victimized" for my religious affiliations, again an attempt to belittle me and make your opinions much more superior than mine, and its really not working. And before you make yourself sound more ignorant than you already are....I did grow up in two muslim countries...and two secular countries. Like I said, I am a bit of both worlds..quite literally.