Dear Abby today

[kddani]

Originally posted by lyrica9
to those who say he shouldn't have slept with a 16 year old:

who's to say he knew her age?

That's not a defense to statutory rape. Call it fair, call it unfair, but that's one thing that I certainly remember from first year criminal law.

While the scenario presented in this letter = rape, I hope to God that there's no way this letter is true. To have a mother that would write a letter to Dear Abby to ask if this is rape, that girl is truly unfortunate. Not to mention having a mother who would allow her daughter to go to a fraternity party, to stay out that late! etc etc.

[lyrica9]

Originally posted by kddani
That's not a defense to statutory rape. Call it fair, call it unfair, but that's one thing that I certainly remember from first year criminal law.

I wasn't saying it was a defense, because I totally agree that it isn't, but merely that people are all "oh well he was stupid for sleeping with a minor in the first place" when in all likelihood he probably had no idea that's what he was doing.

[Little E]

Originally posted by SirHornyToad
Also I'd be interested to know how the "no" was said. Was it said playfully and on the third try she said "oh alright" for all we know if she was that drunk maybe she didn't say no at all, maybe she just felt guilty or someshit the next morning. Maybe she had been seeing that guy for a while and got pissed and decided to do something crazy because she may in fact be crazy. I'm not insensitive to rape, BUT something about this story sounds a little too much like an after school special and a little too drama queen for me.

Rape is not about the No is about consent. A woman (or a man for that matter) cannot give consent to sex. Maybe this was my college's interp, or maybe its a WI thing. But we were taught that you actually have to say YES to sex. And honestly, as a fraternity guy I'd go by that. What does it matter, in the long run, to not hook up that night? If sex is THAT important, find a girlfriend or someone who is sober and CAN consent.

I'm sorry but this whole 'she's a drama queen' bit just makes me sick. You were not in the room that night, what indication do you have that this girl is not to be believed? Do you know the guy? Just because a young girl is a little wild, it does not give the rights to any horny little boy that comes along to do as she pleases. If she says yes, (though she's a minor in this case) fine, but if there is any no, or hesitation on her part it is just wrong.

Also, do you know what actually happens to that girl who claims she was raped? The fight to get someone to believe you, to make decisions regarding prosecution, the exam, facing all your friends, and then facing him and his brothers/friends. It can be the worst experience for a young woman to go through. /soapbox

[kappaloo]

Originally posted by Little E


Also, do you know what actually happens to that girl who claims she was raped? The fight to get someone to believe you, to make decisions regarding prosecution, the exam, facing all your friends, and then facing him and his brothers/friends. It can be the worst experience for a young woman to go through. /soapbox

Definately.

This whole thread is a great example of how people make snap judgements of a girl who was raped. I mean, we got a minimal information and half the people hear are trying to find a way to sound the all clear for the guy.

----

The fact is that unless you were seriously hurt during a rape, reporting it and going to court will have your reputation pulled through the mud. What you wore will be analysed. Any flirting you did that night will rule against you. Bruises and signs of struggle will be discounted as "foreplay". You will become a social pariah.

Why would this mother write Dear Abby? Well, I think this thread shows how unwilling society is to acknowledge date and marital rape. The mother could honestly be confused. Maybe Dear Abby wasn't the right way to solve her question, but that doesn't make it any less likely.

One more time:

As the letter reads, it is rape. If you think the latter is false or wrong, that's different. To be honest, I'd love to think that this letter was written by some 13 year old girls who just wanted to see if they could get in Dear Abby - because then no girl was raped.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by AGDee
I have worked with kids who were worried that they'd gotten pregnant under such a circumstance and were, therefore, having to tell their mother about it. Some attempted suicide instead, leading them to be admitted to the hospital, when the story then came out.

This is true, but I think that if the girl in the letter had gotten pregnant from the encounter, the letter-writer would have mentioned it. Instead it sounds like the daughter told her mother pretty soon after the event. I don't know any 16-year-old girls who would do that if the sex was consentual. Some of them might if they had gotten pregnant, but they would definitely wait until they knew for sure whether or not they were pregnant.

Originally posted by kappaloo

Why would this mother write Dear Abby? Well, I think this thread shows how unwilling society is to acknowledge date and marital rape. The mother could honestly be confused. Maybe Dear Abby wasn't the right way to solve her question, but that doesn't make it any less likely.

One more time:

As the letter reads, it is rape. If you think the latter is false or wrong, that's different. To be honest, I'd love to think that this letter was written by some 13 year old girls who just wanted to see if they could get in Dear Abby - because then no girl was raped.

My personal thoughts on Dear Abby are that she doesn't usually use letters she's gotten from people (and obviously when she does, she edits them severely). Most of the time, I think, she takes scenarios that are important or common enough that she gets asked questions about them fairly often and either makes up a letter or cobbles several of them together. Of course, this is all just a guess on my part -- but you know, it's kind of like those advice columns in Seventeen magazine. I could never believe that any teenage girl would write in to ask Seventeen, "This boy is flirting with me and I think he's going to ask me to Prom, but I hate him! How can I turn him down gently????" when, you know, it would take a month or two for their answer to appear in the magazine, way too late for any help. The answers in published advice columns aren't for the people who write the letters -- they're for other people who are going through the same situation.

For those of you who are saying that this letter doesn't sound believable because "why would you even have to ask if this is rape? of course it is!" -- look at this thread. There are plenty of people who would hear about a scenario like this and immediately dismiss it as probably being consentual. And sadly enough, there are still plenty of people who think of rape as ONLY being some stranger jumping out of the bushes and attacking.

[jharb]

This thread just upsets me because of the views of so many supposed educated women.

[33girl]

Originally posted by carnation
Here's what bugs me. The letter is written too cluelessly to be real. Whaddya mean, was it rape? Of course it was rape and what adult would seriously write a letter like that? On top of that, no adult I know,except one--uses words like "fellow" and "great deal".

I think it sounds exactly like a Barb V letter, like she created this situation just so she could get Dear Abby to agree that it was rape and then she's going to quote it in some lame book about the supposed evils of the Greek system.

Carnation, I completely agree. I don't think this is real at all - just someone trying to make Greeks look bad. If it was real, the mother would have said "I had no idea she was at this party, she lied to me and sneaked out." That a parent would admit in print that their 16 year old was at a party with alcohol - and not explicitly state that they had no knowledge of and didn't condone it - is just setting yourself up for a child endangerment charge these days.

[ThetaPam]

I don't know how the law reads in other states, but in Texas I believe we clarify that drunk people cannot give consent. If a person is inebriated and another person has sex with him/her, it can be called rape and the victim will win in court because here drunk consent is not consent.

[dekeguy]

This thread seemed to be a little unreal to me, so I asked my sister for her take on the question. Wow, I got an irate blast back from her but not exactly what I was expecting. She said that she was sick of all the irresponsible winging of this and countless other stories of a similar nature. Her position was that women needed to grow up and deal with the reality that the world does not operate under PC rules and everyone, regardless of gender, needs to take responsibility for their own actions. She pointed out that this story really pushed the limits of believability but that several factors should be examined if one really wanted to take this seriously. First, it is not exactly a closely held secret that 16 year old girls can and routinely do look, act, and present a totally believable appearance of being very much older. Unless the fraternity demands proof of age someone could easily pass for "legal". Second, while no means no, no one should rely on this as positive protection from base instincts in circumstances that invite trouble. Take responsibility for yourself and avoid situations where trouble could be expected to happen. Also, being "drunk" is likewise not a legal defense for your actions. It is very possible that one could be well oiled and appear to be fully in command. While ignorance of actual age is not a defense as regards stat. rape the "reasonable man" approach can be a major mitigating factor. If the girl can be shown to demonstrate the poise, sophistication, and appearance of a much older woman the court can consider what the proverbial reasonable man would believe in all honesty. She referred to the Errol Flynn rape case heard in the California Superior Ct, County of LA, in 1943. Her basic annoyance is the attitude that no means no is viewed as a magic defense against anything bad happening to anyone no matter how contributory that persons actions. She believes that it is demeaning to women to maintain the attitude that the responsibility lies on the male to operate under artificial rules of PC conduct in a real and potentially dangerous situation while excusing the female any provocation so long as she just says no at any point in the proceedings. Her argument is that a woman must take full responsibility for all her actions or be relegated to the status of "the poor little thing that was taken advantage of by the big bad man". Her position is don't go voluntarily in harm's way, don't borrow trouble, be aware of circumstances, be aware of your ability (or inability) to tolerate alcohol, choose your actions (and companions) wisely and dont winge if your skirts are not clean, but if after taking full responsibility for your own actions something inappropriate still happens then nail the sob's hide to the jail house door.
I am impressed by her stance, and a bit surprised by her anger on the subject. Any thoughts on her reaction?

[33girl]

I heart dekeguy's sister.

[GeekyPenguin]

Time and time again so many women on GC are proving that they aren't as open-minded and pro-female as they'd like to think they are. Maybe this is a fake letter, but like S&S said, how many times as something like this happened?

Say you're a freshman in college and just pledged a sorority. It's little sibs weekend so you bring your sister, who's a senior in high school, up to visit. You guys are having a swap with the XYZs, and she begs you to come. She gets a little drunk, you get a little drunk, and while you're talking to the cute guy from the My Tie exchange you had last month, she is dancing with one of his brothers. You turn around to refill your cup of wop and little sis is nowhere to be found...

because she went upstairs for a "house tour." Fratty takes her into his room and starts kissing her. She thinks that she is the bomb dot com for being kissed by a frat guy. Fratty starts groping her and she's still okay with that. Fratty tries to take off her Sevens, she says no, Fratty takes them off anyway and throws her on the bed.

Stuff like this happens. It sucks, and it's not exclusive to frat guys in the least. I don't care if she said yes to everything except sex. If she said no to sex, she said no to sex, and he should have stopped. Would you guys be so quick to criticize the girl if it was your little sister? Your own daughter?

[PiPhiGirl2005]

Originally posted by 33girl
I heart dekeguy's sister.

I have to agree. She makes good points, especially regarding personal responsability.

[33girl]

We had several of our sisters' little biological sisters come up to visit and party. Let me assure you that they were NEVER left by themselves, out of sight of their big sister, or permitted to go home with a guy, no matter how much we trusted the guy in question.

If you can't make the commitment to take care of your sibling - especially if she's inexperienced with going to parties - don't allow her (or him, for that matter) to come visit you.

Her position is don't go voluntarily in harm's way, don't borrow trouble, be aware of circumstances, be aware of your ability (or inability) to tolerate alcohol, choose your actions (and companions) wisely and dont winge if your skirts are not clean, but if after taking full responsibility for your own actions something inappropriate still happens then nail the sob's hide to the jail house door.

This is what it's about - be responsible for yourself. We see nothing wrong with saying "don't drive through so and so neighborhood after dark" and "don't eat at Joe's, 10 people have gotten food poisoning there." I see no difference in saying "don't get drunk at a party full of horny men you don't know."

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by 33girl
This is what it's about - be responsible for yourself. We see nothing wrong with saying "don't drive through so and so neighborhood after dark" and "don't eat at Joe's, 10 people have gotten food poisoning there." I see no difference in saying "don't get drunk at a party full of horny men you don't know."

How about saying that horny men you don't know need to keep their isht in their pants and control themselves?

[33girl]

Originally posted by valkyrie
How about saying that horny men you don't know need to keep their isht in their pants and control themselves?

Agreed. But you don't know if they will. So you need to look out for yourself. I'm not by any means saying anyone deserves it or asks for it - I'm saying be prudent and don't put yourself in that situation.