Report: U.S. Marine Kills Wounded Iraqi

[Rudey]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
I understand the argument, however:

The man in question would probably have become a POW and be held for a long time. Probably way past the time that we leave.

The Margaret Hassan argument is a strong one, but it still comes down to sinking to their level. We shouldn't.

In addition, the Marine General in charge in this action(and the military in general -- no pun intended) love the imbedded system because otherwise the news folks would be going and doing pretty much anything they want. Imbedding is no favor to the media because it adds another layer of control by the military.

Finally, if you were part of a unit with an imbedded camera crew, why would you shoot an unarmed man in front of that crew? The Marine must have been over the edge one way or another. Which could turn out to be his best defense.

I'm just saying that creating all these rules to fit every situation is not ideal. I'd rather sink to their level and live if I'm a soldier and accomplish my goals. I'm sure none of the soldiers just want to die.

The last part: I don't know. I didn't think about that. It doesn't make sense to me.

-Rudey

[Kevlar281]

"It's better to be judged by twelve than carried out by six."

[RACooper]

So the basic arguement i've seen some put for is that a double standard should apply?

The way I see it is this: if the situation was reversed (unarmed, unconsious Marine killed in a church) the "terrorist" would be judged as the most base creature... so why shouldn't the same standard that is used to define the criminal acts of the "enemy" be applied to this Marine?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by RACooper
So the basic arguement i've seen some put for is that a double standard should apply?

The way I see it is this: if the situation was reversed (unarmed, unconsious Marine killed in a church) the "terrorist" would be judged as the most base creature... so why shouldn't the same standard that is used to define the criminal acts of the "enemy" be applied to this Marine?

The difference is that the terrorist should simply not exist.

The terrorist, to begin with, is not the same as the soldier and hence to try and judge their actions on the same level is beyond ridiculous.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
The difference is that the terrorist should simply not exist.

The terrorist, to begin with, is not the same as the soldier and hence to try and judge their actions on the same level is beyond ridiculous.

-Rudey

So you know that this man was a terrorist? not an insurgent, or a freedom fighter, or a patriot, or a conscript, or a Baathist? Because there is more than one type of "enemy", and unfortunately the distinction is quite important in the strategic and tactical battle because each is motivated by different impulses.

The great thing about this thread is the irony that the people that are/where soldiers are arguing for the rule of law, and the adherance to ethical and moral standards... while the arm-chair generals are the ones advocating the lower of those standards.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by RACooper
So you know that this man was a terrorist? not an insurgent, or a freedom fighter, or a patriot, or a conscript, or a Baathist? Because there is more than one type of "enemy", and unfortunately the distinction is quite important in the strategic and tactical battle because each is motivated by different impulses.

The great thing about this thread is the irony that the people that are/where soldiers are arguing for the rule of law, and the adherance to ethical and moral standards... while the arm-chair generals are the ones advocating the lower of those standards.

You're not an American soldier. Get that in your head. There is no irony there. The irony is you a Canadian constantly judging Americans. The irony is you a Canadian who doesn't know what happened and is ready to execute a man because you did a 2 second trial in your head since you're an arm-chair general.

Now again, he is a terrorist. You can call him a soldier or any other name, but at the end of the day he is what he is. Our American soldiers will deal with the conflict on the ground and our American military will deal with our soldiers.

You go read up on the new maple syrup or whatever it is that's the new big thing in Canada these days.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
You're not an American soldier. Get that in your head. There is no irony there. The irony is you a Canadian constantly judging Americans. The irony is you a Canadian who doesn't know what happened and is ready to execute a man because you did a 2 second trial in your head since you're an arm-chair general.

Now again, he is a terrorist. You can call him a soldier or any other name, but at the end of the day he is what he is. Our American soldiers will deal with the conflict on the ground and our American military will deal with our soldiers.

You go read up on the new maple syrup or whatever it is that's the new big thing in Canada these days.

-Rudey

Actually the important thing up here for me is reading military reports and analysis from Afghanistan... and Iraq.

Okay since you're bigotted and dismisive regarding Canada, it's culture, military, politics... well anything... I'll try to put it into terms that YOU can indentify with then.

The actions of this Marine, which have been broadcast unedited pretty much world-wide... and in particular in the Middle East - most importantly Iraq. Now his actions in no way aid the cause of the US and coalition forces in Iraq, in fact they serve to furth incite the resistance to them... now I have friends (Marines) and relatives (Black Watch) serving there as we speak and this guy has just further endangered their lives...

[Rudey]

Originally posted by RACooper
Actually the important thing up here for me is reading military reports and analysis from Afghanistan... and Iraq.

Okay since you're bigotted and dismisive regarding Canada, it's culture, military, politics... well anything... I'll try to put it into terms that YOU can indentify with then.

The actions of this Marine, which have been broadcast unedited pretty much world-wide... and in particular in the Middle East - most importantly Iraq. Now his actions in no way aid the cause of the US and coalition forces in Iraq, in fact they serve to furth incite the resistance to them... now I have friends (Marines) and relatives (Black Watch) serving there as we speak and this guy has just further endangered their lives...

Right. You did your very important investigation before the act even occured.

And the troops lives were endangered when they arrived. They were endangered by these terrorists. These terrorists were not stopping before and this hasn't changed a single thing. I do wish all the troops there, your friends, and your relatives safety but I have no doubt that my country will handle this appropriately and deal with the situation on the ground appropriately. If you need to be angry with someone endangering your friends and relatives, write a postcard to those terrorists, oops I mean "freedom fighters" as you call them.

Edited to add: you don't know what a bigot is. You have been called a bigot, racist, and anti-semite so don't throw around your own label. And don't make baseless charges.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
Right. You did your very important investigation before the act even occured.

Well I watched the entire video... which includes the approach to the Mosque; the entry into the Mosque; the securing of the Mosque; the joking of the Marine in question; the killing (murder) of the wounded, unarmed, unconsious, unresponsive, surrendered prisoner; and finally the Marine in question response after the fact.

From what I can see and hear the video is undoctored, and the content is pretty damning of the Marine in question actions - as well as intent - because you get to hear his running commentary before, during, and after the act.

And before you jump all over this... I do video and image analysis for work... so yes I am qualified to state the above.

And the troops lives were endangered when they arrived. They were endangered by these terrorists. These terrorists were not stopping before and this hasn't changed a single thing. I do wish all the troops there, your friends, and your relatives safety but I have no doubt that my country will handle this appropriately and deal with the situation on the ground appropriately. If you need to be angry with someone endangering your friends and relatives, write a postcard to those terrorists, oops I mean "freedom fighters" as you call them.

Well duh!

Of course there is danger from all the opponents to the coalition (well US/UK) forces in Iraq... as soldiers they expect that. What they don't expect is one of their own to betray the standards that they hold sacred (and swore an oath to such) and further endangering them... from the email it's pretty much the same reaction to Abu Gharib actually - disgust, rage, and disappointment.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by RACooper
[B]Well I watched the entire video... which includes the approach to the Mosque; the entry into the Mosque; the securing of the Mosque; the joking of the Marine in question; the killing (murder) of the wounded, unarmed, unconsious, unresponsive, surrendered prisoner; and finally the Marine in question response after the fact.

From what I can see and hear the video is undoctored, and the content is pretty damning of the Marine in question actions - as well as intent - because you get to hear his running commentary before, during, and after the act.

And before you jump all over this... I do video and image analysis for work... so yes I am qualified to state the above.



Well duh!

Of course there is danger from all the opponents to the coalition (well US/UK) forces in Iraq... as soldiers they expect that. What they don't expect is one of their own to betray the standards that they hold sacred (and swore an oath to such) and further endangering them... from the email it's pretty much the same reaction to Abu Gharib actually - disgust, rage, and disappointment.

Again you are a Canadian with a low rank who is not qualified for any investigation here although you claim that your experience qualifies you for everything from baking to video analysis. This is an American Marine and the American government will do the work here.

And again, tell your friends to write to the terrorists/freedom fighters. I'm sure they're probably more disgusted by your colleague's actions in Somalia.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
Again you are a Canadian with a low rank who is not qualified for any investigation here although you claim that your experience qualifies you for everything from baking to video analysis. This is an American Marine and the American government will do the work here.

And again, tell your friends to write to the terrorists/freedom fighters. I'm sure they're probably more disgusted by your colleague's actions in Somalia.

-Rudey

"A low rank is better than no rank"

But anyways I'm an officer now... 2Lt. (for now) we'll see after my summer course/teaching position.

As for them being more disgusted by the actions of some the Airborne Regiment... well they as well as myself where disgusted, but I can't say which is more disgusting... I am more disgusted however by the fucking apologists surrounding this case. But if want to draw a parallel with the incident in Somolia fine... perhaps the Marine can learn from it and hang himself in shame and disgrace like Matchee did.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by RACooper
"A low rank is better than no rank"

But anyways I'm an officer now... 2Lt. (for now) we'll see after my summer course/teaching position.

As for them being more disgusted by the actions of some the Airborne Regiment... well they as well as myself where disgusted, but I can't say which is more disgusting... I am more disgusted however by the fucking apologists surrounding this case. But if want to draw a parallel with the incident in Somolia fine... perhaps the Marine can learn from it and hang himself in shame and disgrace like Matchee did.

Unlike you I didn't condemn or free a man and give him a trial. Unlike you I don't try and make myself sound qualified for everything from baking to candle stick making based on a little military experience.

Again, your shameful, disgusting fellow souldiers who did that to the Somali can go deal with that history and you can shutup now.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Rudey
Unlike you I didn't condemn or free a man and give him a trial. Unlike you I don't try and make myself sound qualified for everything from baking to candle stick making based on a little military experience.

Again, your shameful, disgusting fellow souldiers who did that to the Somali can go deal with that history and you can shutup now.

-Rudey

My candle making skill (shoddy as it is) comes from school trips to Black Creek Pionere Village... my baking skills (also somewhat shoddy) comes from trial and error

I use my now 8 years of military expience (12 years in the community) to make judgments... and they are just that judgements not the final word. Ultimately those who are qualified will pass a final judgement on this Marine... I just don't see how people can defend his alleged actions.

Oh as for Somalia... you should say soldier -singular- the others sentanced in the case were guilty of failing to stop him, or command and leadership failures that would allow this the torture and murder to happen in the first place.... just as the platoon commander and senior NCO will be held legally accountable for the actions of the single Marine... it's the nature of military law and command structure, you are responsible in part for the actions of your subordinants - if you had ever served you'd understand at least that basic standard.

[Tom Earp]

Unless you have not been in The Situation then it is very hard to talk about it!

The adrenilen pumps, you have been under fire, your fellow members have been kiled and there is a moments reaction to a situation. No amount of training wil ever get you to taht point when the decision comes in a flash.

Any one can talk big trash, but live it and see what it is like.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Unless you have not been in The Situation then it is very hard to talk about it!

The adrenilen pumps, you have been under fire, your fellow members have been kiled and there is a moments reaction to a situation. No amount of training wil ever get you to taht point when the decision comes in a flash.

Any one can talk big trash, but live it and see what it is like.

Well Tom I have been under hostile fire and I have fired in anger... peacekeeping isn't always sitting around "monitoring" the two sides; sometimes you have to step in the middle, and other times you have to enforce the peace.

In my case, 10 months after I first joined the Reserves, I found myself face down in the dirty seeking cover from Croat fire in the Medak Pocket.

For those interested here are some links to papers or reports of the action:
http://www.cda-cdai.ca/library/medakpocket2.htm - (Covers public perception as a result of Somalia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Medak_pocket
http://www.balkanpeace.org/wcs/wct/wctc/wctc003.shtml
http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/emai...k_medals021201


Yes we suffered casualities, yes we were engaged in combat for hours, yes we were witness to atrocities... however I don't remember any of the Canadians (or the French) deciding to execute/murder any of the wounded that we came upon... men who had quite likely been shooting at us a short time ago - we treated them just like any other wounded: professional and with respect.